After the gun fight - your psyche

I think the majority of combat veterans suffer from PTSD in one form or another. During WW II and Korea it was called "shell shock". No one really knows how one will react from taking another's life. Pilots took many lives without seeing them "up close" as did artillerymen and mortarmen. Snipers took many lives "long distance" if you will, without putting a "face" on their targets. But when it becomes "up close and personal", when you see the dead person, search his body and find his personal belongings, photos of his family and realize you just killed someone's husband, father or son then it becomes "personal". Perhaps not at that moment but sometime when you're alone, maybe at night on guard or even sleeping but there will come a time, maybe years later but you're going to see that person's face again.

I knew men who truly enjoyed killing the enemy. I know it was a necessity of war and a means of survival but I did not enjoy it. When we arrived in Vietnam we were gung ho and ready to kill anything, vowing to never take any prisoners but my attitude quickly changed regardless of how much I hated the enemy. That was 40 years ago and it still bothers me that I personally took the lives of six people, one at the distance of only eight feet away and I can still see the expression on his face.



For what it's worth, I wish LBJ would have turned our AirForce loose and let them bomb Hanoi like our B-52's bombed Iraq in Desert Storm back in 91'. I think the outcome of the war would have been much different.
 
Some people here have said some things that are not only completely ignorant, but just plain stupid as well. No need to mention names though. It is very easy to SAY killing another human would not affect you, especially if you were protecting yourself, or in war, but its another thing to have actually DONE IT, and have to live with it. I have seen some very strong dedicated soldiers weep like babies after having done their duty. There is no shame in it, and it doesn't make one weak. Anyone who thinks so is a moron.


My father once told me a story about vietnam. I may not get all the facts right, but I will give you the story as best I can.

He was sitting with some buddies in one of the small towns or cities. They were quite used to the local children milling around them, and often gave them little gifts, a little bit of food, money, ect. They felt really sorry for these hungry, dirty little kids. It seems as if the enemy saw how quickly the american soldiers accepted the kids, and in one instance, planted explosives on one of the children, sent the kid into a group of american soldiers. Several soldiers were killed or wounded right in front of my dad and his friends. A short time later, he was with the group again, and a kid came running up to them like the other one had. One of the young soldiers completely freaked out and shot the little kid. They found 2 american grenades on his body. They still all cried. It hurt every single one of the to the heart when they looked at this kid.

So they had no doubt saved lives, in war, but still could not escape the emotional problems that followed. Anyone out there who says they wouldn't be bothered is a complete idiot....


I didn't tell this story to bring up any terrible memories for our veterans on this board. If I did, I am truely and sincerely sorry. I just wanted to illustrate a point to these "kill 'em and care less types".....
 
Derius_T,
Unfortunately in Vietnam children with bombs or grenades were commonplace and many American soldiers were forced to neutralize them just to protect themselves and their comrades. That without a doubt is one of the worst memories a warrior can be forced to live with. Just think of what our forces are dealing with everyday in Iraq with these car bombs and suicide bombers. It's enough dealing with the enemy but to have to worry about some idiot blowing himself up or driving a car full of explosives into a group of troops must really take it's toll. My hat is off to all our fighting men and women over there. I wish them all a safe and speedy return.
 
I guess, Glenn, . . . I can only approach your post with some mixed emotions.

Yes, . . . PTSD is a real, existant, horrible problem at times, . . . and for that point alone, . . . your post is very much relevant.

But, . . . there is a little ditty that I have used to make peace with my military service, . . . and I will use it if I am ever forced to deal with taking another's life as a civilian.

"God grant to me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, . . . and the wisdom to know the difference."

What I did, . . . what I stood for, . . . what I accomplished as a sailor and as a soldier, . . . I cannot change, . . . at the time it was a good decision, . . . therefore it is a good decision today, . . . regardless of the opinions of anyone else.

Martyp's experience would be my worst nightmare: "Yeah, I choked once and a buddy paid for it."

Anyway, . . . thanks for raising the bar on awareness, . . . truly anyone carrying a concealed weapon or contemplating defending their domicile should give some thought to whether or not they are emotionally prepared for the consequences of doing such.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
This is a very interesting topic to me. I wish I could have gotten some of this
kind of feedback 35 years ago when I came home from Viet Nam.

I didn't do anything special in Viet Nam. I was a rifle Marine in a Marine
rifle company. A "grunt". We did the infantry thing. Daily recon patrols,
nightly ambushes, occasional long-range patrols. Basically, looking for the
enemy to engage in a firefight. Sometimes we found them, sometimes we didn't.

When I came home I was never treated harshly because I was a Viet Nam vet. I was never spit at, or yelled at or cursed. I spent a lot of time in the hospital, and when I got out, I went back to Viet Nam. I had to, my friends were over there, and I felt like I had deserted them when I left.

When I returned to CONUS the second time, I only had a few weeks until I was separated from active duty. I watched the news, I saw the protests, and I never wore my uniform off base. I didn't want to deal with it.

It was when I actually got "home" that I understood how it was going to
be. "Home" was my parents' house. That was the only place I had ever lived before I went into the Marine Corps. And that was where I learned the
bitter truth about the "war". Nobody gave a damn. Nobody. Not my
parents, not my friends, not my other relatives, NO DAMN BODY!!!!!

The fact that I had seen my good friends shot dead, or blown into pieces,
or that I had been wounded , just didn't matter to them. The war was a
distant thing to them, and they really didn't want to be bothered by the
gory details.

I hope to God that the troops coming back from Iraq get better support than we did. They deserve it. I think a little positive support from friends and
family might prevent some of the PTSD problems that are so prevalent in
veterans from previous wars.

If I've gotten too far off the topic of this post, administrators, just
delete it. But this is a subject that I have an intense interest in, and I
just wanted to put my two cents in.

Walter
 
Welcome Home!

Walter,
Welcome home buddy. You're right, no one cared except those of us who were there. I know what you mean about leaving you're friends over there and for that reason I stayed for my second tour without coming home at all and that decision nearly cost me my life.

You were a "grunt" and that in itself was something special and you should be proud of that.

I was called a "baby killer" once in a bar after I mentioned that I was in Vietnam and it was many many years before I ever mentioned it again in public.

Our troops coming back from Iraq are indeed being treated much better then we were. At least by the general public but I'm not so sure about the treatment they're getting from the government that sent them there.

Hang in there pal. I've finally made peace with myself and the demons that have haunted me for the last 40 years since I left that Godforsaken place.

Riverrat66
 
Walter and riverrat (and any other vets out there),

You guys deserve and are owed as much honor as any American vet who served in either Gulf conflict, in Korea, WWII, or any wars fought by Americans on foreign soil or our own land, and that's a fact. It's a damn shame that ignorant people can't/couldn't understand what it means to serve our country the way that you and millions like you have done throughout our history. God bless both of you for your sacrifices, small or large, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
 
thanks for the excellent readin tips, Glenn!
My way is not to talk about it at all and keep a low profile. If you were justified the actual consequences can be hidden from you social contacts quite well. Keep it for yourself.
 
I came home from Nam in 1966

and went on with my life. I was young with most of my life ahead of me. I had some problems with anger but then doesn't everybody! Nam came up frequently but I ignored the news, politics, and kept my feelings to myself. Other than some dreams and intrusive thoughts from my Nam experience I didn't think there was a problem.

Then my health went down hill. I couldn't work, couldn't do much anything but sit and think. That's when PTSD hit me. I didn't even know what was happening but there I was dealing with memories of Nam that I had put behind me a long, long time ago.

Moral to my story: Don't count your chickens till they hatch!
 
There seems to be almost an expectation that a "decent person" would suffer this way and if he did not then his humanity can be called into question.
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And that is a correct expectation. After my shooting incident I was sent to the navy "shrink". I told him everything was cool and he told me to come back in a week. I told him I didn't think I needed to and he said, "That’s not a request, It's a direct order." He did that four times.

I started to be consumed by the thoughts of the incident and started drinking some, I never really drank before that. The thing is, when I would drink I tended to fight. After one such fight I was taken to the emergency room by the JAFP, who I was assigned to at the time, for an injured hand.
It just so happened that the Doc was on duty that night, as duty officer, and saw me in the EM room. He spoke to the marine SGT. and then ordered him to escort me to his office. In his office I went to sit down when he jumped up my A## and said he didn't tell me to sit and to stand at attention. At attention I took a 20 min A## chewing, which in the end broke the shell. (As it turned out I found that prior to medical school the Commander Dr. had been a combat Marine.)

Yeah, The incident affected me deeper than I wanted to acknowledge
 
" And that is a correct expectation."

garyc,

If that is a correct expectation then it follows, doesn't it, that anyone who doesn't have such a reaction is not decent?

It is that what you want to say?


I am genuinely sorry that you suffered this way and I am not questioning your decency.


Some have that reaction, some don't. But if citizens and soldiers were better prepared for this by dealing with the philosophy and not just the psychology of killing, then such suffering may posssibly be reduced or, for some, eliminated.

That's the main point I'm trying to make.


matis
 
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You're going to do a whole lot better after the fight, if you're not dead. Survive the fight, deal with it on your own terms, get whatever help you need to get, and then get on with your life. That's the reality of this situation.
 
Yeah, The incident affected me deeper than I wanted to acknowledge
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Bingo! No one wants to admit they might need help because they might be perceived as weak. You know, the "big tough guy image" would be shattered but there is nothing wrong with asking for a little help. The worst thing one can do is isolate themselves after such a horrific experience as taking another's life.

Like I said in my earlier post, some men actually seemed to enjoy killing the enemy while others simply saw it as a necessary job, a means of survival if you will. That does not mean that they had better morals then the others.

Now if you take these gang-bangers who do these drive-by shootings without any regard to innocent bystanders, not only are they immoral but they are evil also. I think they are the weak ones because they have to use their cars to shoot and run away like cowards. They're just like terrorists, they cover their faces and don't have the balls to stand and fight.

Sorry, I got a little carried away and way off topic.
 
You can be the toughest SOB in the place but that wont help you much when life changing events happen that are beyond your control. I dont have firearms because I want to hurt somebody. I own firearms because I know that in a hearbeats time I can be that statistic on the frontpage. I will know what I will do when that moment comes. The mind is a funny thing, and medical science doesnt have all the answers yet. Taking a life has to be a life changing event even if you are legally and morally justified. Part of the preperation should be to learn about PTSD and related illneses. After all we arm ourselves with our firearms to defend ourselves, shouldn't we also arm our mind with knowledge to deal with PTSD or other stress that might occur after taking a human life? Makes sense to me. Some will say it could never happen to me..... it can happen to anyone.
 
QUOTE} Bingo! No one wants to admit they might need help because they might be perceived as weak. You know, the "big tough guy image" would be shattered but there is nothing wrong with asking for a little help. The worst thing one can do is isolate themselves after such a horrific experience as taking another's life.{ QUOTE.

Actually it was in some ways my reaction to the situation, denial, freeze-up, pissing my pants. I was questioning my manhood in light of some pre-conception of toughness. I was only 20 at the time and we all know how 20 year old boys are. I was getting in fights I guess to prove my manhood, even though, like most boys, I didn't know what it really was. SO I'd say that was 50% of the problem.
The other 50% was the sight of someone dying by my hand. Even though he fired on me first, I still felt very bad and still saw the event over and over in my mind like a TV store video. The thing is, rationalizing your actions is only a step toward placing the incident into its proper perspective.
 
#56
garryc
Member

Join Date: 11-12-2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 75

QUOTE} Bingo! No one wants to admit they might need help because they might be perceived as weak. You know, the "big tough guy image" would be shattered but there is nothing wrong with asking for a little help. The worst thing one can do is isolate themselves after such a horrific experience as taking another's life.{ QUOTE.

Actually it was in some ways my reaction to the situation, denial, freeze-up, pissing my pants. I was questioning my manhood in light of some pre-conception of toughness. I was only 20 at the time and we all know how 20 year old boys are. I was getting in fights I guess to prove my manhood, even though, like most boys, I didn't know what it really was. SO I'd say that was 50% of the problem.
The other 50% was the sight of someone dying by my hand. Even though he fired on me first, I still felt very bad and still saw the event over and over in my mind like a TV store video. The thing is, rationalizing your actions is only a step toward placing the incident into its proper perspective.
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When I first heard of "PTSD" I blew it off as some kind of "feel-good"
psycho-babble B.S. When I read about a lot of Viet Nam vets having
it, I wrote them off as a lot of REMF crybabies looking for a handout
from the V.A.
When I got on the 'net', maybe 10 years ago, I eventually got around to
looking into this "PTSD" I had been reading about. It amazed me how
doctors who don't know me could read my mind, look into my soul.
I had a drastic change of attitude about this "PTSD" thing.
I haven't been to the V.A. about this, and I don't intend to go.
They have enough problems right now. Besides, the V.A. is a big
pain in the A** to deal with. Just realizing that I have a problem in a certain area has helped me to deal with it.
I guess it's like AA. The first step is realizing that there is a problem.

Semper Fi

Walter
 
As far as having a problem with it today, I don't. Its a point of growth. I'd say its one of the factors that make me a good corrections officer, attention to detail and not giving into the habit of going through mindless repetitive motion without paying attention.

I didn't elect to kill someone, that was his choice. He might as well have shot himself because he put the course of events in motion, I was mearly the reaction to his action.
 
After Effects of Taking Another's Life

The biggest, toughest Trooper I ever knew once had to kill an armed man as they were locked at contact distance in a lethal dance around each other, wrestling with their free arms as all the while both tried to bring their handguns into play. I recall that the Trooper related afterward that he repeatedly begged the soon to be DOA, "Mister, please don't make me kill you"!

Justifiable as this shooting obviously was, my Trooper suffered post-traumatic stress for months, and probably for years, with the results of his having to take another human's life. For some time, it looked like it might cause him to leave law enforcement for another line of work but he persisted and recently retired as a Lieutenant.

This particular Trooper was so physically rugged that he used to fight in Tough-Man contests (and win) and in training single-handedly TOSSED other SWAT team members through open windows where ordinarily two other guys would have to give them a boost.

The point is, despite the present state of the art critical incident debriefing techniques and counseling, etc., even the physically toughest individual can, and probably will, be troubled emotionally by being involved in a lethal confrontation.
 
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