Advantages of revolvers over semi autos

I have a hard time accepting that premise.

With a locked breech semiauto, the bullet is out of the barrel (propelled by expanding gases) before the slide starts to open.

That opening is caused by recoil, not by gas pressure. So, while the bullet is in the barrel, its a closed system. 100% of the preasure is being used to drive the bullet down the bore.

Once the bullet clears the muzzle, it doesnt matter what the gun does. The bullet is already in free flight.

Well to try to make an analogy lets say you're pushing off against the wall. You will get a better push off the wall if its a solid and unyielding, for instance if its a brick wall, than if its a wall thats made out of or covered by, say, the same material used to make gym mats. That's how it is with semi autos vs revolvers, with a revolver the bullet is pushing off a more unyielding platform since with a semi auto the platform, I believe, uses springs to transfer some of the energy the bullet is using to push off into chambering the next round. Same thing with a semi auto rifle vs a bolt action rifle. With revolvers and bolt action rifles none of the energy that the bullet uses to push off is transferred into chambering the next round since the process for chambering the next round is entirely mechanical.
 
You will get a better push off the wall if its a solid and unyielding, for instance if its a brick wall, than if its a wall thats made out of or covered by, say, the same material used to make gym mats.

Brother, you miss the technical point. The semiauto (locked breach) slide does not begin to move until the bullet is well clear of the muzzle. At that point it makes Zero difference in external ballistics.

So, it DOES start against the brick wall, in your analogy.
 
^^^^^^^ I'm sorry but that's not correct. I've seen many vids in slow mo showing the slide moving about a 16th of an inch before the bullet exits. Most vids were using a 1911. Several of the vids I saw on this forum.
 
73,000 frames per second is not enough resolution. Try 1,000,000 frames per second. And it's probably closer to 1/32 of an inch movement. See below.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=otpFNL3yem4

There is a reason gas powered recoil systems exist, beyond just the need to create a pressure reducing management of the gases for the right amount of force needed to operate the semi-automatic system. It also creates a firmer, non-moving platform in place until the bullet exits and the gases behind operate the action.

Thus I respectfully disagree with the comment above that the reciprocating action reduces the accuracy of an AR over a bolt action. I agree that bolts are frequently more accurate than semi-auto rifles but it's not because the action is moving back before the bullet has exited. It has not. It's for other and different structural reasons that can be resolved with some careful but expensive engineered parts.

Similarly, revolvers are not inherently more accurate than semi-autos just because the slide starts moving before the bullet has exited in semi-autos and not in revolvers. Frankly both semi-autos and revolvers will be pushing backwards into the squishy meat of your palm in both so that the moving of the slide on a recoil operated gun will have little effect between the two on accuracy. The major difference between the two is in fixed verses moving barrels and the tightness in the lockup of a barrel/slide in a semi-auto. A finely tuned 1911 with nice barrel lockup (at a price tag of $3000) will be more accurate than a run of the mill revolver. Just like a finely tuned AR can be more accurate than a run of the mill bolt action.

But to be clear, in a recoil (not gas) operated semi-auto the slide DOES move back a very small amount before the bullet has exited. But this movement will have little or no effect on accuracy.
 
sharkbite said:
Brother, you miss the technical point. The semiauto (locked breach) slide does not begin to move until the bullet is well clear of the muzzle.

Exactly what do you believe causes the slide to begin moving after the bullet is clear of the muzzle?

Little invisible fairies pushing on it maybe?

Brother, I hate to have to tell you this, but you haven't just missed the technical point, you aren't even in the same universe!
 
Not necessarily. IF the adopted self-defense strategy is to deliver a small number of carefully-aimed, accurate, very powerful rounds (like mine is), then nothing I can full-time conceal-carry can compare with my .44mag S&W69 5-shot L-Frame revolver.

The Model 69 Smith is the only revolver I carry these days. With this particular revolver I do not see much of an issue with capacity when used in a SD role. I have mine loaded with 200 grain Gold Dots (44 special bullet) over 28 grains of 296.
 
Brother, you miss the technical point. The semiauto (locked breach) slide does not begin to move until the bullet is well clear of the muzzle. At that point it makes Zero difference in external ballistics.

So, it DOES start against the brick wall, in your analogy.

Well Im not all that familiar with the mechanics or the engineering of semi autos so I will have to study that. If what you're saying is true than it would also apply to semi automatic rifles vs bolt actions I take it.
 
Small point of order here, While the slide may be seen to move a tiny amount in the high speed pics, so is the barrel. The slide does NOT move, relative to the barrel until well after the bullet is gone.

So the entire assembly moves a fraction of an inch, so barking what??? It makes NO practical difference.

Take three different guns, of the same barrel length, firing the same ammunition, and you will get three different average velocities. They should be close, but may not be. There are differences between each gun, and each round of ammo.

Take two or more identical guns, even consecutive serial numbers off the production line and chronograph them. Odds are HUGE you will not get identical results. And, if you do, it's serendipity.

Variations of a handful of fps are common, and expected. Variations of as much as 100fps are not common, but not unknown. Any "velocity loss" due to the slide moving before the bullet leaves the barrel will be lost in the inescapable statistical variance between different gun.

many years ago, I was chronographing some .357 ammo a friend brought over, some hot stuff he loaded for a Marlin carbine. Test guns were his 6" S&W model 19, my 6" S&W model 28, my 6" Desert Eagle, and his 18.5" Marlin carbine. 125gr JHP and a case full of 2400.

First up was his model 19, with him firing. On his first shot, he doubled the gun!! Up until that point, I didn't know it was possible with a .357, but it happened. 2 rounds were fired where only one was intended. At that point we decided to stop using the 19 for the test. The four unfired rounds dropped free normally. The two fired cases had to be driven from the cylinder with a small hammer, they would not extract with hand pressure alone.

indicated velocity was 1620fps.

Next was the model 28. 6 rounds fired and extracted NORMALLY. Inidcated velocity 1670fps.

Desert Eagle, 8rnds, normal function, vel: 1720fps.
(no velocity loss from a moving slide there!!!:rolleyes:)

Marlin carbine 5 rounds normal function 2200fps.

The 100fps difference (with the same ammo) between the 3 different 6" barrel handguns is uncommon, but not so rare as to be totally unheard of.

The Desert Eagle has a fixed barrel, so no possibility of losing anything due to slide movement. And while it has no cylinder gap, the 6"barrel is over an inch shorter than the 6" barrels of revolvers (by the length of the cartridge case, 1.290") And that DE was also a bit of a cheater, being one of the early polygonal rifled ones.

This was a case where the "shorter" barreled semi auto had the advantage in both velocity and function over revolvers.

Speak about the traits of revolvers vs. semi autos, in general, all you want, but remember there are always exceptions.

Would also like to add that, in my opinion, stuffing rounds into the front of a revolver cylinder is not an accident. ONE might be an ignorant mistake. 6 is absolutely a deliberate act, and doing it to 3 guns is a posed photo.

You can, however, easily load common semi auto rounds into the magazine backwards. There was an ad a while back where it clearly showed a round in the magazine loaded backwards, a goof no one caught until after the ad ran...
I forget now who it was...HK?? maybe??
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkbite
Brother, you miss the technical point. The semiauto (locked breach) slide does not begin to move until the bullet is well clear of the muzzle.



Exactly what do you believe causes the slide to begin moving after the bullet is clear of the muzzle?

Little invisible fairies pushing on it maybe?

Brother, I hate to have to tell you this, but you haven't just missed the technical point, you aren't even in the same universe!


Maybe i am in the wrong universe...in mine there are a couple laws of motion and physics that dictate this existence.

So, without being snarky...

The guns in question are RECOIL operated. Recoil begins at the instant the bullet STARTS to move (Newtons 3rd law)

The slide has weight and spring pressure holding it in place. The recoil must overcome the inertia and spring pressure before the slide starts to move

Now, that recoil impulse still exists and has imparted its energy to the slide. So, the slide WILL move, but it takes a small amount of time before it does. No fairies..no magic dust... Just science and physics

I will grant that in the link you provided the slide does appear to move slightly as the bullet is exiting the barrel. Its not very much. The bullet appears to be a .45 cal, using that as a scale, i would guess a movement in the couple THOUSANDS of an inch range. Not a 32'd or even close to that amount.

So, getting out of the realm of pure science and back into practical matters. Just how much is the 2/1000's of an inch of slide movement while the bullet is still in the bore going to cost in velocity? THAT was the initial assertion..."slide movement of the semiauto robs velocity".


My initial statement stands... The itsy bitsy movement of the slide during the bullets travel inside the barrel has no effect on velocity. You will get more variation due to ammo inconsistency and varaitions between guns
 
44 amp and Sharkbite, I think we agree. The movement of a recoil operated slide does start and there is movement (however small) before the bullet exits. We also agree that this movement, compared to all the other variables, is a non-issue as to both accuracy and velocity. I don't think this factor has any practical or measurable affect on accuracy or velocity compared to revolvers. So there's no real comparison/advantage/disadvantage to be ferreted out on the basis of slide movement during firing. The advantages/disadvantages between the two are rooted in other issues.

As to the desert eagle example, I believe those are gas operated. So that is a non-sequitur.
 
I mentioned the Desert Eagle because it was what I had on hand during the velocity test I wrote about. And, I pointed out that it is a fixed barrel design (gas operated) so no slide & barrel movement factor applied.

If you think about it, the fact that the barrel and slide of most common recoil operated autos move a tiny bit before the bullet exits is a non issue. The slide and barrel are locked together, and the pressure of the gas is pushing in ALL directions. There is no "give" or movement of any kind between the boltface and the barrel relative to each other, until well after the bullet has left the barrel.

The base of the case doesn't go anywhere, its held in place until the gun unlocks. The movement you see in those high speed pics is movement relative to the frame. So there is no movement of anything inside the barrel, except the bullet and powder gas, and the gas is expanding pushing the bullet out. There is nothing moving to create any "extra" space the gas needs to fill, no drop in pressure (or resultant drop in velocity).

Looked at another way, no movement of the slide & barrel locked together makes any change in the interior capacity of the case or the volume of the bore as the bullet moves down it. Since this does not change, I see no possibility of any significant velocity change.
 
sharkbite said:
in mine there are a couple laws of motion and physics that dictate this existence.

Same thing in mine. Over here, engineers like John Browning, Dieudonné Saive, etc, use them to design semi-automatic pistols.

sharkbite said:
i would guess a movement in the couple THOUSANDS of an inch range. Not a 32'd or even close to that amount.

You can guess, or you can do it the way John Browning did it about 115 years ago by using Newton's Laws of Motions. It actually is rocket science!

From a discussion on recoil operated pistols 4 or 5 years ago:

45_auto said:
If anyone is really interested, you can use Newton’s stuff from 400 years ago to understand how your gun works. We used it to get us to the moon back in the 60’s, we use it on the rockets and guns we’re designing today. If you don’t care to know, don’t worry about it, keep believing whatever makes you happy! No big deal.

For example, how long does your bullet remain in your gun barrel, and what kind of acceleration does the bullet experience?

What kind of acceleration does your slide experience, and how fast is it moving when the bullet exits? How far has the slide moved rearward when the bullet exits?

This kind of stuff is REAL important if you’re designing things like rocket mechanisms or artillery fuses or proximity detonators.

Not real easy to effectively transmit mathematical concepts in a forum format, but we can try. I’m going to ignore the contribution of the unburned powder and gases exiting the barrel with the bullet.

We’ll call the starting position of the bullet the zero of our coordinate system, so X(initial) = 0. We’ll abbreviate it as Xi cause I’m lazy. That means Xi = 0.

V(initial) is the starting velocity. We’ll call that Vi. For a bullet in a gun, it’s initial velocity is 0. So Vi = 0.

We’ll call the last position we consider, the end of the barrel, X(final). I’ll abbreviate that as Xf.

T = time in seconds.
T**2 means “T raised to the second power” or "T squared" or “T x T”.
X = position in inches.
V = velocity in feet per second.
A = acceleration in feet per second squared (fps**2).

The basic motion equation in terms of time is:

Xf = Xi + V x T + (A x T**2) / 2

If you want more on this basic motion equation, you can go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_of_motion

Introductory calculus teaches us that the first derivative of position is velocity, and the first derivative of velocity and the second derivative of position is acceleration (I’m not going into calculus for you).

So Velocity = Vi + Acceleration x Time, or

Vf = Vi + A x T

We’ll look at a typical .45 caliber 1911. First thing we have to do is get everything into common units.

Bullet weight = 230 grains = 230/7000 pounds = .033 pounds = .001025 slugs (slug is mass unit in english system).
Barrel length = 5 inches = 5/12 feet = .417 feet
Bullet velocity when it exits the barrel at 5 inches = 830 feet per second.

Now we just use the basic motion equation:

Xf = Xi + Vi x T + (A x T**2) / 2

Put in our 1911 values that we know:

.417 = 0 + 0 x T + (A x T**2) / 2 or

.417 = (A x T**2) / 2 (NOTE – This will be EQ1)

Notice that we have 2 unknowns (A and T) but so far only one equation. From basic algebra we know that we need as many equations as unknowns if we hope to solve them.

This is where we use the rest of the stuff we know and the velocity equation:

Vf = Vi + (A x T)

We know Vf (Velocity final) is 830 fps. We know Vi (Velocity initial) is 0, so

830 = 0 + (A x T)

Since we loved algebra, we solve for A in the above equation and find

A = 830 / T (NOTE – This will be EQ2)

Now we can cleverly plug the above relationship back into our basic motion equation EQ1, replacing A with 830 / T.

.417 = (830/T) x (T**2) / 2

Simplifying this (basic algebra again) gives

.417 = 415 x T

Now we solve for T:

T = .417/415 = .0010048 seconds

In other words, T is right at 1/1000 of a second.

Since we now know T, we can easily solve for A from EQ2:

A = 830/ T = 830 / .001 = 830,000 feet per second squared.

Acceleration due to gravity = 32.2 fps**2, so our bullet is experiencing:

830,000 / 32.2 = 25776.4 G’s as it goes down the barrel.

Kind of important to know if you want to hang some electronics on your bullet. They better be able to handle more than 25,000 G’s.

How much force is the locked together barrel/slide seeing, and how fast is it accelerating?

We know that the force from the bullet equals its mass times acceleration, and we know that for every force there is an equal and opposite reaction (that Newton stuff again).

So the force delivered to the locked together barrel/slide from the bullet is:

F = M x A

F = mass of bullet x acceleration of bullet

F = .001025 x 830,000 = 851 pounds

How fast will 851 pounds accelerate the barrel/slide?

F = M x A = 851

Algebra again:

A = F / M = 851 / M

I’m going to say 12 ounces (3/4 pound) for the slide, and 6 ounces (.375 pounds) for the barrel. Mass would be (.75 + .375)/32.2 = .035 slugs.

So the acceleration of the slide is:

A = 851 / .035 = 24,358 feet per second squared.

24,358 / 32.2 = 756.46 G's

Now we know the acceleration, so how fast is the slide moving when the bullet exits the barrel?

We know the bullet is in the barrel for .001 seconds, and once it leaves the barrel there is no more reaction with the gun. So the slide/barrel acceleration is applied for .001 seconds.

V = A x T = 24,358 x .001 = 24.358 feet per second.

If the frame was in a perfectly rigid mount, the slide would be moving rearward at just over 24 feet per second when the bullet leaves the barrel. If you're holding it in your hands, a little of the energy will get used up moving the frame backward which would slightly drop the slide velocity. We're also simplifying things by ignoring the force required to re-cock the hammer which would also slow down the slide, so 1911Tuner's figure of 22 FPS should be very close.

How far has the slide moved when the bullet leaves the barrel?

Again we use the basic motion equation. Now that we know the acceleration and time, we can find the distance the slide moves:

Xf = Xi + Vi x T + (A x T**2) / 2

Xf = 0 + 0 x .001 + (24,358 x .001**2) / 2

Xf = .012179 feet = .146 inches, or just over 1/8 of an inch.

You’ll find that with your 1911 slide .146 inches retracted, the barrel and slide will still be locked together. John Browning did all the stuff I did above over 100 years ago (once smokeless powder was invented so everything didn't get gummed up) when he started designing machine guns and semi-automatic pistols.

Recap:

Bullet velocity at barrel exit: 830 fps
Time bullet is in barrel: .001 second
Bullet acceleration while in barrel: 830,000 fps**2, or just over 25,000 G’s.
Slide acceleration while bullet is in barrel: 24,358 fps**2 or just over 756 G's
Slide velocity when bullet exits: 24.4 fps
Distance barrel/slide moves while bullet is in it: .146 inches

Note: The slide is accelerated ONLY while the bullet is in the barrel, so it’s only accelerated for .001 seconds. You can see where the recoil spring force (16 or 18 pounds or so) is pretty insignificant against the 850 pounds of force the slide/barrel assembly is experiencing while the bullet is accelerating.

All of the stuff above is freshman year engineering Calculus 1, Physics, and Statics. No way anyone is going to explain it on an internet forum to anyone who does not have the fundamental background to understand it. I can see where it aggravates some people who understand trying to explain it!

Since we know the slide velocity, slide mass, barrel mass, recoil spring rate, and location where the slide unlocks, we could go on to calculate the slide velocity when it unlocks, the barrel velocity when it hits it's hard stop, the slide velocity when it hits it's hard stop in recoil, the time it takes to reach full recoil, how long it will take to return to battery, and the force that it impacts against the slide stop pin. We ignored the contribution of the recoil spring, hammer spring, unburnt powder, and gases exiting the barrel. Feel free to add them into the calculations if you feel the need.

Over here, as actually measured (sorry, can't find the link right now, I'll try to post it later), a 1911 slide moves about 3/32" (90 thousandths) before the bullet exits the barrel. Just to check our calculations, how far does a 1911 slide/barrel move before it unlocks?

With a nominal lug engagement of .039 as shown here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...vy42b6vQS4JYnzFsLyAp2GqQ&ust=1470913169615531

and a standard .278 link:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...FJIMqkAaMUyRzibp5TMclmTA&ust=1470913299246786

it's easy enough to figure out how far the link has to rotate to drop the lugs out of engagement (unlock the slide from the barrel):

Cos -1 ((.278-.039)/.278) = 30.7 degrees.

This means that the link has to rotate 30.7 degrees to drop the slide .039". How far back does the slide have to move for the link to rotate 30.7 degrees?

Sin (30.7) * .278" = .142"

In this universe, a decent engineer (John Browning and Dieudonné Saive are generally considered to be a fairly decent engineers here) does not design a slide to move back over 4/32" before unlocking the barrel if all that was required was a couple of thousandths.
 
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While quaintly geeky...that has NO bearing on the premise that slide movement affects velocity.

The thread title is "difference between revolvers and semiautos" and the premise was put forth that the slide moving cost some FPS of velocity. THAT is FALSE.

You can digress into the minutia of how many thousandths of slide movement happens, but the bottom line is any velocity loss is SO minimal as to be lost in ammo variation and standard deviation between guns.

If you cant measure it..its meaningless
 
I am a revolver guy.

The correct answer, of course, regarding the movement of the slide bleeding off the bullet's velocity is this:

In a 1911 with standard velocity hardball at 800 feet a second, the bleed off is
785 feet, thus leaving 15 feet a second for the bullet. But because it's a large
caliber, it hits a target with great authority.

Case closed.
 
I looked through all the pages and didn't see this posted. For me my preference for a revolver over a slide action is because I'm left-handed. I also like the simpler manual of arms in the event of a "bump in the night" incident when I might be still waking up.

From the start of a draw, clearing leather and first shot on target at combat distances I'm just faster (while still maintaining accuracy) with a revolver than I am a slide action pistol. Many bottom feeders I've owned over the years didn't have ambi-safety. Even when I got them fitted with an ambi-safety or bought one with it (Like my old BDM) I'm still faster with the revolver.

I started with a revolver over twenty years ago, moved to 9mm slide, then 1911's in 45acp. Came back to a 357 revolver with a 3 or 4 inch barrel about ten or twelve years ago. The utilitarian versatility and speed to bring into action of a revolver trumps a slide action.
 
So any reason why somebody would choose a revolver over a semi auto?
This begs the question: "For what purpose?" For hunting (large bore gun for deer), an advantage of a revolver is that there are longer barrels available in revolvers. This gives an advantage in longer sighting radius, more weight forward for a steadier hold, no brass thrown out to be lost (important for we handloaders), and generally more powerful cartridges (.41 mag, .44 mag, heavy loaded .45 Colt, etc.). Also, for target shooting, a fine single action trigger, longer barrels (see above). The applications where the autos are more advantageous are in a combat role where someone is shooting back...in the many roles of a handgun where someone is not, is where the revolver shines. So, you have to define what purpose you wish to apply the handgun before you can decide what fine qualities (revolver or auto), that you be needing.
 
The barrel/slide WILL be moving backwards at some velocity (wrt the ground) when the bullet exits the barrel, and it will have already moved a (very) short distance backward. And the bullet's published muzzle velocity is now relative to the barrel, not relative to the ground, so the bullet's velocity relative to the ground (and to the target) is the muzzle velocity minus the barrel/slide's velocity wrt the ground. So the bullet IS slowed down (relative to the ground and target) by the movement of the slide. But the barrel/slide's velocity wrt the ground is approximately equal to the bullet's muzzle velocity, multiplied by the ratio of the bullet mass to the barrel/slide's mass, and that is a VERY small ratio, and a very small decrease in the bullet's velocity wrt the target ... negligible for almost all conceivable purposes.
 
And the bullet's published muzzle velocity is now relative to the barrel, not relative to the ground,

Hmmm... Not sure what kind of chronograph you are using that measures relative to the barrel of a semiauto. Even a bayonet attached Magneto-speed is Frame based. Most Chrono'd speeds are from a ground based unit 15' in front of the muzzle:confused:
 
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