Adamant about a .22
- Thread starter Phoebe
- Start date
It's not about "volunteering" to be shot; we all know that's a dangerous chance.
But, when your life is on the line and a BG is determined to hurt/kill you, is it enough to STOP them? There's a reason hunters don't use a .22 rifle for hunting big game; they know it CAN do the job, but it doesn't do it as reliably as a larger, more powerful cartridge.
If the .22 LR was a great stopper of men, the military would have used it at some point. Imagine soldiers being able to carry a few thousand rounds of effective ammo with them that easily.
The truth is, while it CAN kill a person, and is certainly dangerous, it's not a great stopper of a determined agressor. No military, law enforcement, or any other combat type group uses it as standard issue anywhere in the world, and there's a reason for it.
If it's what a person shoots well, and they're unable to effectively handle something larger, then it can certainly be an effective deterrant to crime under many conditions. If a person can handle more, and is able to shoot a bigger gun well, then there's a better chance of them being effective with their firearm if they're ever forced to use it.
three things can contribute to stopping a criminal quickly. A CNS (Central Nervous System I.E. brain, spine) hit will stop them right now, and the threat will end very quickly, no matter the caliber or cartridge. Another is a loss of blood pressure. A bigger hole bleeds more, and a bigger bullet damages more internally and causes more blood loss. The third is a major support bone (hip, leg) being broken, and a larger bullet does that better, too.
Anything else may kill in time, but might also leave an agressor alive and able to hurt or kill you.
It really is that simple.
Daryl
davlandrum
New member
Kayla - you may be new, but that doesn't mean you are an idiot. 
Highly opinionated idiots are impossible to deal with.
Highly opinionated idiots are impossible to deal with.
This guy worked my nerves on a number of levels.
As for a .22, I can rent one for free to play around with it. But I have yet to see any good reason to consider one as an SD weapon of choice. And I've seen plenty against it. So I don't know why the guy was so badly arguing with me.
Part of the irritant is that my situation is more than theoretical and I'd guess I have a great likelihood of needing to stop a person, given some recent happenings.
So, wouldn't someone want me to have the best possible chance to defend myself, if needed? And isn't that best possible chance a bigger caliber than a .22? And if a guy is wearing kevlar, a .22 isn't going to help that anymore than my 9mm, which I'd already told him, I'm very comfy shooting.
I think I'm going to tell him to bug off. It wasn't just the gun discussion that bothered me.
As for a .22, I can rent one for free to play around with it. But I have yet to see any good reason to consider one as an SD weapon of choice. And I've seen plenty against it. So I don't know why the guy was so badly arguing with me.
Part of the irritant is that my situation is more than theoretical and I'd guess I have a great likelihood of needing to stop a person, given some recent happenings.
So, wouldn't someone want me to have the best possible chance to defend myself, if needed? And isn't that best possible chance a bigger caliber than a .22? And if a guy is wearing kevlar, a .22 isn't going to help that anymore than my 9mm, which I'd already told him, I'm very comfy shooting.
I think I'm going to tell him to bug off. It wasn't just the gun discussion that bothered me.
watchcollector1968
New member
Sounds like you are on the right track with your 9mm. Keep in mind though that with all the talk of 22 being unreliable, there are plenty of cases (if you can believe much on the internet) of misfires with centerfire ammo as well...feed failures and other failures that are also complained about with 22. In general though centerfire is probably more reliable...reliability is increased dramatically (as in going bang) with premium ammo in 22.
Yes, some 22s can be picky about ammo as well...so can centerfire guns. How many articles have you read about some 2000 dollar custom 1911 that the writer says "out of 150 rounds, we only had 2 failures" and then go on to blame it on the ammo...no matter the reason, a failure is a failure.
Also "real calibers" are not magic. There was an article several years ago (I believe in American Handgunner) by Ayoob documenting a police shooting. The police hit the guy a couple dozen times with 357 and 45 rounds and he just kept going...it was a 12 guage slug to the spine that finally stopped him. (he was severely drugged up). Definitely a situation where you dont want to depend on a 22...but far more powerful rounds did not fare any better.
Yes, some 22s can be picky about ammo as well...so can centerfire guns. How many articles have you read about some 2000 dollar custom 1911 that the writer says "out of 150 rounds, we only had 2 failures" and then go on to blame it on the ammo...no matter the reason, a failure is a failure.
Also "real calibers" are not magic. There was an article several years ago (I believe in American Handgunner) by Ayoob documenting a police shooting. The police hit the guy a couple dozen times with 357 and 45 rounds and he just kept going...it was a 12 guage slug to the spine that finally stopped him. (he was severely drugged up). Definitely a situation where you dont want to depend on a 22...but far more powerful rounds did not fare any better.
Watchcollector, you hear these stories, but in part, they are noteworthy because they are anomolies. In reality, if I am dealing with a BG who won't go down with 10 rounds of 9mm in him, I'm going to be in far bigger trouble than a cop...but I'm also far less likely to end up in a situation like that.
fast-eddie
New member
While I agree that this guy is crazy. It isn't crazy to think people endorse products for money, it happens every day.
So there's Ayoob and every other qualified instructor in the country, without exception, being paid to sell out their professionalism and shun the mighty .22 and it's superior street performance.
When you consider LE and the military, the scandal promises to widen. The SS and Air Marshalls have all been duped by Ayoob.
His type will try to use intimitation to get agreement for what facts can't support. Winning the argument is more important than the specifics.
Yes, .22's have probably caused more deaths than any other caliber, but car accidents kill more than airplane crashes based on number of accidents even though the overall fatality rate is low for cars and high for planes. By his logic, a car crash is more deadly than a plane crash!
Wonder what platform he carries in .22 RF.
Even so, .22 is better than nothing. I have carried a Smith 317 8 shot with stingers, but i'ts been replace by a 642 .38.
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nazshooter
New member
I've heard of at least one case of a .22 bouncing around inside a skull rather than exiting out the other side. Not that I'd want to count on that in an SD situation.
watchcollector1968
New member
Very true. I was not trying to suggest that it is common...in fact it is probably most unlikely, but not impossible. I guess my point is that nothing is a guarantee...best to have a plan b as well.
Of course! But if Ayoob is making a product endorsement, I haven't seen it. He is speaking in terms of minimal caliber, not in terms of specific manufacturers -- at least in what I was reading.
A product endorsement would mention a brand!
To whoever asked, I assume the guy is carrying some kind of .22
carguychris
New member
Other posters have already covered most of the drawbacks of .22LR for defense, but I'd like to add another couple of facts.
In terms of sheer numbers of people killed, .22LR is actually one of the deadliest cartridges around. This causes some shooters to conclude that it's a good choice for self-defense, but they are usually taking the reasons for the large number of casualties out of context, and they're failing to take some other facts into account.
1) .22LR is probably the most common caliber for target shooting and small game hunting, so many bystanders are shot accidentally while near people engaged in these activities. This is responsible for a large number of .22LR deaths. (Unfortunately, the low power of .22LR causes some negligent shooters to adopt a cavalier attitude about gun safety when using a .22, but I digress.)
2) Many violent crimes are committed with .22s, not because it's an effective caliber, but rather because it's what the criminal has. Many (if not most) crimes are committed by the type of people who don't take time to carefully plan what they're doing. They didn't studiously research which caliber is the best; they just need A GUN. Given the incredible multitude of .22s sold over the last 100 or so years, odds are good that if a crook steals, begs, or borrows a random gun, that gun will be a .22.
3) It's already been pointed out that a .22 is unlikely to incapacitate a person immediately unless shot placement is perfect. Many of the people who expire after being shot with a .22 didn't die immediately; they died hours later due to internal bleeding, or even weeks later due to an infection in the wound. (IIRC Bobby Kennedy, possibly the past century's most famous .22LR fatality, died about 9 hours after being shot.) OTOH a simple fatality statistic is unlikely to accurately reflect this fact.
4) A non-incapacitating shot with a .22 often stops an attack if the attacker runs away, feigns death, begs for mercy, or whatever, to avoid getting shot again. OTOH any expert worth a darn will advise you that it's extremely unwise to assume that this will happen every time you shoot an attacker. You have to be prepared for the possibility that a non-incapacitating shot will anger the attacker and intensify the attack. While this reasoning is sometimes taken to absurd extremes by some people on these types of forums ("I carry a .50BMG rifle in my truck in case I'm attacked by Kevlar-wearing zombie grizzly bears..."), most people believe it's vitally important to carry a caliber capable of incapacitating an attacker without perfect shot placement.
In terms of sheer numbers of people killed, .22LR is actually one of the deadliest cartridges around. This causes some shooters to conclude that it's a good choice for self-defense, but they are usually taking the reasons for the large number of casualties out of context, and they're failing to take some other facts into account.
1) .22LR is probably the most common caliber for target shooting and small game hunting, so many bystanders are shot accidentally while near people engaged in these activities. This is responsible for a large number of .22LR deaths. (Unfortunately, the low power of .22LR causes some negligent shooters to adopt a cavalier attitude about gun safety when using a .22, but I digress.)
2) Many violent crimes are committed with .22s, not because it's an effective caliber, but rather because it's what the criminal has. Many (if not most) crimes are committed by the type of people who don't take time to carefully plan what they're doing. They didn't studiously research which caliber is the best; they just need A GUN. Given the incredible multitude of .22s sold over the last 100 or so years, odds are good that if a crook steals, begs, or borrows a random gun, that gun will be a .22.
3) It's already been pointed out that a .22 is unlikely to incapacitate a person immediately unless shot placement is perfect. Many of the people who expire after being shot with a .22 didn't die immediately; they died hours later due to internal bleeding, or even weeks later due to an infection in the wound. (IIRC Bobby Kennedy, possibly the past century's most famous .22LR fatality, died about 9 hours after being shot.) OTOH a simple fatality statistic is unlikely to accurately reflect this fact.
4) A non-incapacitating shot with a .22 often stops an attack if the attacker runs away, feigns death, begs for mercy, or whatever, to avoid getting shot again. OTOH any expert worth a darn will advise you that it's extremely unwise to assume that this will happen every time you shoot an attacker. You have to be prepared for the possibility that a non-incapacitating shot will anger the attacker and intensify the attack. While this reasoning is sometimes taken to absurd extremes by some people on these types of forums ("I carry a .50BMG rifle in my truck in case I'm attacked by Kevlar-wearing zombie grizzly bears..."), most people believe it's vitally important to carry a caliber capable of incapacitating an attacker without perfect shot placement.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
But, Kayla, he's a guy -- of course he knows more about firearms than you do. (Sarcasm, and barf while I'm at it... also mad, just for good measure!)
If he bugs you about this -- or anything else, for that matter -- again, tell him ever so politely that you're busy and he needs to leave you alone. If he doesn't leave you alone (I'm assuming this happened at the range), tell the rangemaster he's harassing you.
And if you are at the range, perhaps you can use the adrenaline dump from your MAD at this guy as a learning experience: see how you shoot when you're fired up from dealing with a jerk. (How lifelike...)
Not that a .22 wouldn't be just nifty to practice with, but it's not a priority for you at the moment, I suspect.
If he bugs you about this -- or anything else, for that matter -- again, tell him ever so politely that you're busy and he needs to leave you alone. If he doesn't leave you alone (I'm assuming this happened at the range), tell the rangemaster he's harassing you.
And if you are at the range, perhaps you can use the adrenaline dump from your MAD at this guy as a learning experience: see how you shoot when you're fired up from dealing with a jerk. (How lifelike...
)Not that a .22 wouldn't be just nifty to practice with, but it's not a priority for you at the moment, I suspect.
While no one in their right mind would want to get shot with a 22lr, it has lots of limitations as a defensive weapon.
But it can be a great defensive tool in that you can practice, practice, practice for very little cost and become an excellent shot. Skill shooting a 22 will carry over to larger calibers. Of course you have to practice with your defensive caliber too but the 22 will give you much more time on the firing line.
Anyway, keep doing what you're doing and don't pay any attention to that idiot, he's not worth it.
But it can be a great defensive tool in that you can practice, practice, practice for very little cost and become an excellent shot. Skill shooting a 22 will carry over to larger calibers. Of course you have to practice with your defensive caliber too but the 22 will give you much more time on the firing line.
Anyway, keep doing what you're doing and don't pay any attention to that idiot, he's not worth it.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
.22 lr is very deadly. Some of the most deadly wounds I have ever encoutered as a medic were from .22 lr. It is not so much of an immediate stopper. One of the wounds would have appeared to many to be a non lethal wound to the shoulder. In reality the bullet bounced off of the collarbone under the ribcage. It tore the pleura and both lungs. The person very nearly died. Did not appear immedately life threatening.
Another case a person was hit in the back of the pelvis. The bullet bounced and changed path and tore the abdominal aorta, and the diaphram. Again immedate apperance was just shot in the butt with a .22. Reality was he was going into shock fast. He died in less than 6 minutes after we arrived.
I would not advise a .22 for a woman if she can handle a larger caliber. A larger caliber tends to cause more trauma, leading to shock faster. A woman would have a hard time fighting off a hypooxic perp even if he is hit multiple times by a small caliber.
(My training with GSW's is until you see an MRI or CAT scan they are shot everywhere inside even if you see a clear entrance and exit wound. You do not know where else that bullet whent before it came out. Bullets do strange things inside the human body)
Another case a person was hit in the back of the pelvis. The bullet bounced and changed path and tore the abdominal aorta, and the diaphram. Again immedate apperance was just shot in the butt with a .22. Reality was he was going into shock fast. He died in less than 6 minutes after we arrived.
I would not advise a .22 for a woman if she can handle a larger caliber. A larger caliber tends to cause more trauma, leading to shock faster. A woman would have a hard time fighting off a hypooxic perp even if he is hit multiple times by a small caliber.
(My training with GSW's is until you see an MRI or CAT scan they are shot everywhere inside even if you see a clear entrance and exit wound. You do not know where else that bullet whent before it came out. Bullets do strange things inside the human body)
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.22 has been known to bounce around inside the skull. Being that .22 pistols can be small and concealed easily, quite a few criminals used them for hits. They are quite deadly, if used in a thought-out manner.
However, they make poor defensive pistols. The "assassins theory" of the .22 only works well with headshots, and usually near contact distances. Defensive tactics are MUCH different. Defensive pistols are supposed to stop an attack quickly, even with less-than-ideal shot placement. Sure, .22s can kill, but the BG may not stop as fast as a couple .45s to the center of mass...
However, they make poor defensive pistols. The "assassins theory" of the .22 only works well with headshots, and usually near contact distances. Defensive tactics are MUCH different. Defensive pistols are supposed to stop an attack quickly, even with less-than-ideal shot placement. Sure, .22s can kill, but the BG may not stop as fast as a couple .45s to the center of mass...