ACLU and "conservative" causes?

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Quick response from Oyez:
Facts of the Case
Brandenburg, a leader in the Ku Klux Klan, made a speech at a Klan rally and was later convicted under an Ohio criminal syndicalism law. The law made illegal advocating "crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform," as well as assembling "with any society, group, or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism."

Question Presented
Did Ohio's criminal syndicalism law, prohibiting public speech that advocates various illegal activities, violate Brandenburg's right to free speech as protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments?

Conclusion
The Court's Per Curiam opinion held that the Ohio law violated Brandenburg's right to free speech. The Court used a two-pronged test to evaluate speech acts: (1) speech can be prohibited if it is "directed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action" and (2) it is "likely to incite or produce such action." The criminal syndicalism act made illegal the advocacy and teaching of doctrines while ignoring whether or not that advocacy and teaching would actually incite imminent lawless action. The failure to make this distinction rendered the law overly broad and in violation of the Constitution.
So the Court voided Ohio's Crime Syndication law. Branden got a pass!

The shorter version is that the Court said that this particular manner of speech was within constitutional bounds.

STAGE 2, this thread is not about NAMBLA. Nor is it about free speech per se. It is about actions and relevancy of the ACLU. Like them or not, they have advocated many issues that pertain to your everyday life:

1964: In Escobedo v. Illinois, raised the question of exactly when the Sixth Amendment's right to counsel began. The court held that suspects had a right to an attorney when in custody and when the questioning became accusatory. The ruling brought the "standards of due process into the previously hidden world of the police station."

1966: Miranda v. Arizona. The ACLU stated that a "suspect in custody had not only a right to a lawyer but also a more fundamental right not to incriminate himself or herself." The Supreme Court's decision enunciated the now-famous Miranda warning. Police were required to advise suspects of their right to remain silent and their right to an attorney.

1969: In Tinker v. Des Moines School District, opened up a new body of constitutional law involving the rights of students. The ACLU represented three students who wore a black armband to school to protest the war in Vietnam. The Supreme Court held that "it can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1969: In Street v. New York, the Supreme Court held that flag burning was protected symbolic speech, and that Street, who was represented by the NYCLU, "did not urge anyone to do anything unlawful" but was engaged in "excited public advocacy."

note bene: It is precisely because of Judicial activism (see Griswald (1965) and Roe (1973) - also ACLU cases) That the theory of Judicial restraint, via Original Intent came into being. This was also the time that the ACLU proposed the "living document" theory.

1971: Times v. United States, the Supreme Court allowed the papers to continue publishing their stories [the Pentagon Papers], holding that "the dominant purpose of the First Amendment was to prohibit the wide-spread practice of governmental suppression of embarrassing information."

1973: In Frontiero v. Richardson, the Supreme Court ended a U.S. military policy that gave the husbands of servicewomen an automatic dependency, whereas the wives of servicemen had to meet a dependency test.

1975: In Goss v. Lopez, held that students had a right to oral or written notice of the charges, an explanation of the evidence against them, and an opportunity to rebut the charges. Further, students had a "legitimate entitlement to a public education as a property interest which is protected by the Due Process Clause."

1975: In O'Connor v. Donaldson, Donaldson had been institutionalized for fifteen years. "He was not dangerous and had received no medical treatment." The Supreme Court ordered his release and "awarded him $20,000 in damages, establishing the principle that nondangerous persons could not be confined against their will."

Now, having posted everything I have posted on the ACLU, I will give a quick opinion: I don't like them. But, and this is important, this is not to say they haven't made significant contributions to our rights. One can recognize this and even applaud their actions, without agreeing to their positions on everything they do.
 
Alakar...

I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised by the tone of this debate. I post in several political forums (almost all conservative), and this has been one of the most thoughtful, respectful, and open minded debates on the ACLU that I have seen. It really shows the intelligence and depth of thought of most gun owners.

I understand that most gun owners are Republicans or conservatives (I differentiate them because the Republican party to me is just a giant hypocracy just like the Democratic party.) however, to most Americans I'm very "left" leaning. Call me what you will, but I do agree with Marko Kloos that unfortunately when there's a hot topic to debate on this forum, especially with religion and politics it does become a urinating contest, and name calling contest which is disappointing because if everyone could just rationally debate even if someone's comments are deemed as far fetched and crazy at least some form of understanding could be reached. And understanding is what we need as a country, not disunity and infantile hatred.


Epyon
 
So the Court voided Ohio's Crime Syndication law. Branden got a pass!

Yes, but if you read the decisions of the court, had the statute been more narrowly tailored this might not have been the case.

One can recognize this and even applaud their actions, without agreeing to their positions on everything they do.

One could, if they were so inclined. Just like a broken watch is right twice a day, the ACLU no doubt has been on the winning side a time or two. Applauding someones actions isn't that hard to do. I can find all sorts of positive things to say about Saddam's regime. There was little crime, no sectarian violence, and an efficient justice system. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a good thing to have him go.

What we need to do is measure the organization as a whole, and on the balance, the ACLU has been more harmful than good. An organization that only protects certian rights is just as dangerous as an organization that is trying to abolish such rights.
 
I like Mannlicher comments about the ACLU being communists who hate America. Last time I checked that definition also fits for liberals.:D
 
An organization that only protects certian rights is just as dangerous as an organization that is trying to abolish such rights.
So the NRA is just as dangerous as the Brady Bunch because it's only protects a certain right?
 
The Nazis did in fact close many, many, many Christian churches and imprisoned or murdered any priests who took pacifist or cotradictory views toward what embodied Nazism..they had absolute control over what was thought right or wrong....the idea that Christian authorities all simply took a go-along with Nazi idologies and deeds is false...
 
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You were saying?

Don't take just my word for it...ask any of the resident Germans on the board. The passivity and complicity of the Church (both Catholic and Protestant) in Germany during the Third Reich is a well-documented and accepted fact.

There were priests of both denominations that spoke their conscience about the Holocaust (and some of them were murdered), but by and at large the Church remained silent.
 
he idea that Christian authorities of any kind all simply took a go-along with Nazi idologies and deeds is false...

It's off-topic to this discussion, but I can't let this one go by. The vast majority of Christian clergy in NAZI Germany "went along to get along." There were a few brave clergymen who didn't, and they ended up in Buchenwald.

Why did Pope John Paul II (I think) have to give an official Papal apology for the then-Pope's (Pious XVII?) accomodation to the NAZI regime, if that accomodation wasn't made?

Also, German Protestantism had a long-standing tradition of not only submitting to, but actively promoting State power, going back to Martin Luther.

Look at NAZI propaganda from the 1930's. The NAZI regime was explicitly Christian, at least by their own standards. Most of the German church went along with it, and paid the price.

--Shannon
 
people who can't read...:rolleyes: ..I said not ALL Christian leaders did go along..and I was including those in German occupied territories..and no, the Nazis pretended toward christian beliefs but all along was bent towards unmistakable paganism....and I'm going back to the mid 30s when the party seized full power of the state, not just during the war...of the rest, they sat silently by or were fully in approval...
 
STAGE 2, we don't have to agree with each other, but, if you are going to quote me, at least have the curtesy to quote in context.
STAGE 2 said:
What we need to do is measure the organization as a whole, and on the balance, the ACLU has been more harmful than good. An organization that only protects certian rights is just as dangerous as an organization that is trying to abolish such rights.
It seems to me, that you just tarred and feathered every gun rights organization with that last sentence. Was that you intent?

A good argument can be made that without the protections of the 1st amendment, our 2A right would be in more danger than it already is. As it stands, the ACLU has helped to protect your (our) speech more than any single organization out there.

Useful idiots can be... well... useful!
 
Marko Kloos, I missed a very important statement in my original post that I did just a while ago correct.

1. How can an ACLU Lawyer make this statement, “Anything that has to do with Faith in the Public Schools is Unconstitutional”? Given the fact that this phrase "Separation of Church and State”, does not appear anywhere in the writings of the Constitutional Document.

I thought the phrase but failed to type it.

I will contend, that there was an ACLU Lawyer, on the Bill O’Reilly show that did in fact state exactly that. I don’t remember his name but he has appeared on the show several times. To say I do not understand, or fail to understand the Legal part of your argument may well be so, but in the court of Public opinion I am sure I hold a Majority view, that the ACLU does more harm than good, as I stated in my previous post I will concede that they have done some good, but I will never see that the supporting of the Rape of young boys is anything, but justifying a crime in the eyes of GOD and man, regardless of the legal argument over the freedom of speech, which I fought to preserve, but my effort was never intended to preserve this sort of a right.

Sir with all due respect these things are prime examples of the Constitution being used to destroy the same, it is to me a bunch of legal jargon to change laws by the Bench instead of Legislation. And will not you concede the fact that the Phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not nor has it ever appeared in the writings of the Constitution of the United States of America?
 
The problem is the slippery slope. That is usually evoked with any kind of gun limitations at all. Some folks argue the the current laws on full auto firearms are definitionally unconstitutional.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

Thus, if one wanted to advocate sex with children (horrific) be legal, does an absolutist view hold and that speech is protected. That is different from planning a crime by the way.

It wasn't long ago that many other behaviors were banned by law - interracial marriage, various sex acts, the AWB and the carrying of concealed firearms. One might advocate interracial marriage or the CHL - which were illegal. Should that be stopped because some dude thinks that is against the laws of God? Should the Nazis at the gun show be arrested as they praise horrific acts of the past and advocate more of them?

How many folks here rail against hate crime laws?

The test is whether you support free speech for thinks you find abhorrent. If you don't get that - you don't get the concept of liberty and are just responding to a gut reaction. However, while child abuse is against the gut of almost all of us - we cannot limit expression based on the gut standard.

Otherwise, a majority could ban the speech of every gun nut wanting to shout about the revolution. The author of Unintended Consequences could be arrested. Is it better to err on the side of liberty? We certainly have the legal means to act against child molesters.
 
And will not you concede the fact that the Phrase "Separation of Church and State" does not nor has it ever appeared in the writings of the Constitution of the United States of America?

I've answered the same question about a dozen times or more on TFL alone.

No, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. Neither do the terms "interstate commerce" and "separation of powers". They are merely descriptions of established constitutional principle. (The "church and state" phrase was coined by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the intent of the First Amendment.)

As an example to illustrate my point: The word "trinity" appears nowhere in the Bible. Neither does rapture, or second coming, or original sin. Also absent from the Bible are the words afterlife, evangelical, catechism, purgatory, penance, unpardonable sin, moral, morality, or funeral.

Does that mean those are just made-up concepts contrary to Biblical teachings? Or do they merely describe established Biblical principles?

Finally, do you really want to argue that there should be no separation between church and state? The only way I see even a religious person being comfortable with such a proposition is when they parse "church" as "my church".
 
Sorry I don't know how to make the quote box.

I've answered the same question about a dozen times or more on TFL alone.

No, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. Neither do the terms "interstate commerce" and "separation of powers". They are merely descriptions of established constitutional principle. (The "church and state" phrase was coined by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the intent of the First Amendment.)

As an example to illustrate my point: The word "trinity" appears nowhere in the Bible. Neither does rapture, or second coming, or original sin. Also absent from the Bible are the words afterlife, evangelical, catechism, purgatory, penance, unpardonable sin, moral, morality, or funeral.

Does that mean those are just made-up concepts contrary to Biblical teachings? Or do they merely describe established Biblical principles?

Finally, do you really want to argue that there should be no separation between church and state? The only way I see even a religious person being comfortable with such a proposition is when they parse "church" as "my church".


I was unaware of the previous post in regard to the Separation of Church and State, therefore Please accept my apology.



My concern is not with other phrases at this point in time, I am only concerned with the one Phrase in question, which goes to the First Amendment, to my mind the passage that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Is to me much like the Phrase in the Second amendment, the Right of the People, Both very profound and clear yet are constantly left out of reasoning, I get real upset when I hear the Phrase Separation of Church and State followed by the oft repeated line "claiming the unconstitutionality of what ever they seem to be trying to make a point on, as if they have the Constitution to back up their statement, inferring the correctness thereof.

I will not discuss the issue of the Biblical Writings, as I do not have the Background to offer a relative argument, so I choose to ignore this subject respectfully.

I most definitely take a stance on the phrase Separation of Church and State with this understanding, the simple display of any religious symbol does not pose the Establishment of a Religion it only recognizes the existence of one, and no law has been passed to proclaim it as such, no matter if the symbol is a Cross, Star of David, the Menorah, or any other such symbols.

I grew up with these things in plain view in the public Schools, The American Flag, and we recited the Pledge of allegiance every morning to it, along with The Holidays recognized, Christmas, Easter, Valentines Day, Thanksgiving, to mention a few, there was never to the best of my knowledge any big deal made about these things, for it was simply explained that the Star of David was like the Cross of Christianity, a Symbol of the different Religions, nothing more nothing less. But today you would think there was some sort of a major crime committed by the Display of these things, and we are the worse off for it, regardless of the legal Ramifications of the correctness of the law.

I as many other Service personnel served this country to protect a way of life, the Flag, and the Constitution, and it makes my sick to see the Constitution used to destroy the Constitution, in the name of political correctness and such, I apologize for my lack of ability to state my case in the terms of the Court Room, and my ignorance of the proper language to use, but I will never apologize for defending what I feel is right, and just. Respectfully!

And I do fully understand your point of why the issues are defended in a Court of Law, and don't mean to be argumentative, but some things are just not right.
 
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Er, Marko, what about the complicity and passivity of German secularists? Its just a small point but worth contemplation.

Of course modern day Germans would preferentially remember church leaders who lived through the reich wouldn't they? That's merely Darwinian logic, no great leap of faith. This is one of those times I wish I had the privilage here of closing threads.
 
I'm quite sure that the Star of David and symbols of the Jewish faith weren't happily displayed in most of the USA until recently.

The parts about God in the Pledge are recent. However, is it the case that schools should display only Christian symbology and then grudingly Jewish symbols? When significant Islamic populations want their symbols in school is that ok? When significant Hindu populations want a picture of Vishnu next to the Cross, must that occur? Here comes Wicca and Satan!

To cut to the chase, the argument is because the advocates of religious symbols in school want specifically to have Christian symbols. I regard that as a socialism of religion. Why should the state have to remind your kids about their faith? It is your job.

The argument will then be that Christians are the majority and this is a Christian country. It is exactly because of this, that we need to keep one faith from trying to dominant the schools.

If you are ready to have a picture of Vishnu or Satan next to the Cross, Star and Crescent - say that here.

I prefer a complete separation rather than a dominant faith or pandering to every faith on the planet.
 
If you are ready to have a picture of Vishnu or Satan next to the Cross, Star and Crescent - say that here.

And I demand my religion be allowed its' fair share on government property as well.

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Back to the original question, I don't see the ACLU as being an advocate of either liberal or conservative causes. However, the ACLU does seem to have a propensity to champion causes that tend to irk the majority of the citizenry. Maybe constantly swimming upstream against public opinion is the true definition of civil rights advocacy...
 
Avoids tyranny of the majority, one of the reasons a constitutional republic is better than a true democracy.
 
No, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. Neither do the terms "interstate commerce" and "separation of powers". They are merely descriptions of established constitutional principle. (The "church and state" phrase was coined by Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the intent of the First Amendment.)


Well, if you look at art. 1 sec. 8..."To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes". Yeah I know it doesn't literally say the phrase interstate commerce, but commerce among the several states is interstate commerce. That's about as straight forward as it gets and doesn't require interpretation. Sure you can argue about what is interstate commerce, but whatever it might be, congress undoubtedly has power to regulate it.

The establishment clause doesn't even impliedly say anything about church and state. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". I'm no Clarence Darrow but to me that means that congress cant make a law establishing a religion.

Furthremore theres that important second part that people love to leave out. "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Now if we look at this in the historical context in which this was written, remembering that the framers were people who had just separated from a country with a national/state sponsored church, it would seem to me that this would all be pretty clear.

Establishment clause = no state religion.
Free exercise clause = worship how you want to

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. As long as each faith is treated equally under the law, then nothing has run afoul of the constitution.

All of these arguments about if you put a cross up then you have to put up a star and a crescent, are bull. The issue is not who you say yes to, but if you say no to anyone. If there aren't any jews in the community to ask for their fair share of representation then you can't expect to see the star of david.

As far as prayer in schools, I don't see how this can violate anything. If I say that I pray, can anyone here tell me what my faith is? I don't think so. Prayer doesn't respect the establishment of a religion any more than taking a nap does. Furthermore making it voluntary quashes any complaints from athiests. No doubt they would be "offended" by it, but nowhere does the constitution protect someone right not to be offended. Its that little thing about free exercise again. As long as I don't force you to do anything, you can't tell me what I should or shouldn't do.


Its this kind of stuff that shows how so many people have twisted and perverted the words of the constitution so much that what was originally intended to prevent congress from making a law supporting a particular religion now means that a 5th grade teacher can no longer put up a christmas tree.

I can guarantee you that this surely isn't what the framers intended at all.
 
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