Accurate mil-surp
- Thread starter MilitaMatters
- Start date
tahunua001
New member
why is this important if the guy wants to drill and tap the receiver?
You'll probably need an expert gunsmith {just to get the scope aligned properly}, if you want to have him build a fake British T Enfield SMLE sniper rifle for you. SARCO sells the best sniper scope and parts for the build.
I have a fake SMELLY, scoped T sniper rifle...though without the original scope and mounts.
I have a fake SMELLY, scoped T sniper rifle...though without the original scope and mounts.
Mosin-Marauder
New member
Ha!
My Piece of Junk '41 round receiver could shoot 2" with the right handloads and 3" with Winchester commercial, but that was a year or so ago when I was still actively tinkering and experimenting with it, But my K-31 is my most accurate, yes, and is not that far ahead of the accuracy of my M24/47, which gets 3" with commercial stuff. My K-31 can group 1.5-2" with handloads and slightly larger with GP11.
I refute the claim that Mosins are "garbage", Yes, if you wander into a gun store and pick up any round receiver 91/30 without so much as looking down the bore you run into the chance of getting a shot out and inaccurate rifle, nothing about the design or the rifle is inherently inaccurate, however. If you do your research and actually try to get a good one, you can get a very good rifle (and it doesn't have to be a Finn or a PU or PE to be accurate, although those are generally more accurate due to the higher quality, and for good reason).
But hey, if I just wanted one accurate mil-surp, I'd get a K-31.
And K-31's accept side scope mounts that clamp on and are extremely stable, and you won't be ruining a perfectly good K-31 by drilling into it if you get one of those with the clamp on mounts. But hey, it's up to you.
ALSO,
Yes, mine has a so-so barrel that is counterbored and I can hit an 10" gong every time at 200 with it and 188 surplus ammo.
(sorry for rambling
)-Mo.
Last edited:
Keep in mind that most of the rifles are v notch rear and at the receiver (inlouding the Swiss)
You better be abel to shoot V notch an dhopoe you eyes don't change too soon .
As much admired as the K31 is, ammo is expensive and its not got the sight the Model of 1917 has.
Please note the below is wrong. There is no separate P17 Winchester, they were all Model of 1917s and parts are fully interchangeable between all of them ( I know, I have had mixed parts in all of mine when I got them all work fine.)
Correct term is Model of 1917 and you can add Enfield to it. Eddystone loosely as they made the most. there is no P17.
All Three factories made the original P14 (303) which was a mod of the P13 (270 Brit that was made on handful only).
Eddystone, Winchester and Remington. All parts are interchangeable on 1917, no so the P14.
You better be abel to shoot V notch an dhopoe you eyes don't change too soon .
As much admired as the K31 is, ammo is expensive and its not got the sight the Model of 1917 has.
Please note the below is wrong. There is no separate P17 Winchester, they were all Model of 1917s and parts are fully interchangeable between all of them ( I know, I have had mixed parts in all of mine when I got them all work fine.)
Correct term is Model of 1917 and you can add Enfield to it. Eddystone loosely as they made the most. there is no P17.
All Three factories made the original P14 (303) which was a mod of the P13 (270 Brit that was made on handful only).
Eddystone, Winchester and Remington. All parts are interchangeable on 1917, no so the P14.
I have a pair of M98 Mausers still in 8x57 that are more accurate(with the right ammo) than most people can hold with open sights. I know this because they're somewhat limited by using 4x scopes.
I also have 4-5 03A3 Springfields with both 2 and 4 groove barrels(best I can tell these haven't seen combat or have been re-furbed since) that are MORE accurate than the Mausers(which may have actually seen combat use with corrosive and/or steel jacketed ammo).
There may still be some Enfields that haven't been shot out but otherwise, the rest of the mil-surp pack is left in the dust.
I also have 4-5 03A3 Springfields with both 2 and 4 groove barrels(best I can tell these haven't seen combat or have been re-furbed since) that are MORE accurate than the Mausers(which may have actually seen combat use with corrosive and/or steel jacketed ammo).
There may still be some Enfields that haven't been shot out but otherwise, the rest of the mil-surp pack is left in the dust.
In terms of the ability to get a cheap, accurate milsurp I think the M96 is hard to beat. They're very nicely machined, they never saw war, and at least in theory they all have a bore condition inspection disk. Which of course someone could have swapped, or just shot out the gun afterwards. I paid in the $300ish range for mine. At some point it was setup as a blank-firing gun with a threaded muzzle. Some of those are totally trashed, but mine passed inspection with flying colors and shoots about 1.5 MOA off bags with PPU 140gr. ammo - the cheap stuff. The stock stability is pretty good too - it doesn't shift POI too much no matter what you do with it.
The only real downside IMO is that the rear sight is a leaf rather than an aperture. I know there are after-market options, but I haven't figured out what if anything I want to do.
The only real downside IMO is that the rear sight is a leaf rather than an aperture. I know there are after-market options, but I haven't figured out what if anything I want to do.
I sold off my Moist Nuggets to get a K31. I wouldn't mind having a K98 or decent SMLE. My K31 has a scout scope mounted in place of the rear sight, so I can restore to original military configuration without any harm to the rifle. I did not care for the clamp-on side scope mount. I would not want to permanently alter such a fine firearm.
As far as ammo cost: For .30 cal rifles, there's not much of a difference in price for reloaders. My K31 might even be cheaper to reload as it gets more performance out of less powder and the bullets and primers are the exact same as .308. Occasionally, .308 guys can get good deals on mil surp ammo. Occasionally, 7.5x55 mil surp becomes available as near match grade ammo at a reasonable price. Online, commercial prices for loaded ammo for all the "common" former military calibers are produced for about the same prices, about $2 more than .308/7.62x51 ammo per box of 20. I bought PPU soft point ammo for my K31 and that's given me quite a supply of brass (in addition to a nice supply of GP11, which I won't be reloading).
As far as ammo cost: For .30 cal rifles, there's not much of a difference in price for reloaders. My K31 might even be cheaper to reload as it gets more performance out of less powder and the bullets and primers are the exact same as .308. Occasionally, .308 guys can get good deals on mil surp ammo. Occasionally, 7.5x55 mil surp becomes available as near match grade ammo at a reasonable price. Online, commercial prices for loaded ammo for all the "common" former military calibers are produced for about the same prices, about $2 more than .308/7.62x51 ammo per box of 20. I bought PPU soft point ammo for my K31 and that's given me quite a supply of brass (in addition to a nice supply of GP11, which I won't be reloading).
Bolt or autoloader?
If it's a turn-bolt you're after, first choice for something that will give you decent accuracy would be a 1903 ... or, for much better sights (rear aperture), get a not-shot-out 1903A3, especially if you can find one that's all or mostly unmodified.
If you want a historic "mil-surplus" auto, you can't do better than an M1 Garand. M1s can be had in either traditional 30.06 or 308, and both cartridges are affordable and readily available from the Counter-help Commandos working at WallyMart.
Consider the M39
Mosin M39, my name's sake. Rifles of the White Death. Well within your budget, available currently at Classic Arms. Accurate with cheap, widely available and excellent quality surplus 7.62x54R. Known for high accuracy due to vastly improved Finn barrel, sights and stock. Clean after shooting with Dixie's Black Solve, Ballistol, or any other bore cleaner suitable for corrosive ammo (some people just use warm water).
Mosin M39, my name's sake. Rifles of the White Death. Well within your budget, available currently at Classic Arms. Accurate with cheap, widely available and excellent quality surplus 7.62x54R. Known for high accuracy due to vastly improved Finn barrel, sights and stock. Clean after shooting with Dixie's Black Solve, Ballistol, or any other bore cleaner suitable for corrosive ammo (some people just use warm water).
Last edited:
No so much any more, and I don't think I would go say "Excellent Quality" regarding most of the Com-block surplus either. Some is pretty good, but from what I have seen there is as much garbage as really good, with most being OK.
Spam cans are pretty much gone, and when you do see them, they are ~$200+ for a 440 round can. There is commercial stuff out there, probably made at the same factories that made the surplus stuff, but it is not that much less expensive than cheap .308 any more.
Regardless, if you want a milsurp rifle you can find ammo at a big box store, you are really looking at a pretty short list, .30-06 or .308. This is assuming "Big Box Store" means the same to you as it does me, Wal-Mart.
That leaves you these options: US 1903, 1903A3, US 1917, the Ishapore Enfield you mentioned, and a handful of Mauser variants in .308 (Israel, Spanish FR-8) or .30-06 (Norway, Belgium, Columbia, Mexico).
Avoid the Spanish 1916 carbines, they are small ring actions never intended for .308 pressure levels.
If you are wiling to mail order ammo, you may be able to find an original Mosin Nagant PU Sniper for not much over your budget, there were a ton of them imported a few years ago, and they come up from time to time and it already has the side mount scope.
Then again, if you are willing to mail order ammo, that opens up a lot of possibilities on other rifles, particularly Yugo Mausers.
If you are committed to drilling holes in a historic rifle, try and find one that has already been sporterized, probably save some money in the long run.
If you are thinking that you will save money over a commercial hunting rifle, those days are gone. I like milsurps, but even the cheapest ones, The Mosin Nagant 91/30, the supply has dried up considerably, and bottom of the line 91/30s are going for ~$250 these days.
The days of modifying a military rifle to a sporter as a more economical way of getting a quality hunting rifle have passed. This made a lot of sense when they were a fraction of the price of the bottom of the line Remington or Winchester, and could be found by the barrel full in the local hardware store for $10. Those days are long gone.
http://www.fedarm.com/product/7-62x54r-148-grain-fmj-ammunition/
Hello there emcon5. You are correct in that it is less available, but it's still out there. Widely available when considering the new manufacture. Every bit as affordable as .30-06, .303, Swiss, and 8mm etc. Russian steel .308 is a little cheaper, but not many "surplus rifles" in .308. Meanwhile brass or brass cased ammo can be easily found and cartridge is readily reloaded if desired.
Disagree on quality. All of the Russian and Bulgarian spam can ammo I have used (a lot) has been well packed, clean, shot flawlessly with excellent accuracy - in the M39 that is.
Heck, OP can always opt for an SKS for cheaper gun and cheaper ammo.
Hello there emcon5. You are correct in that it is less available, but it's still out there. Widely available when considering the new manufacture. Every bit as affordable as .30-06, .303, Swiss, and 8mm etc. Russian steel .308 is a little cheaper, but not many "surplus rifles" in .308. Meanwhile brass or brass cased ammo can be easily found and cartridge is readily reloaded if desired.
Disagree on quality. All of the Russian and Bulgarian spam can ammo I have used (a lot) has been well packed, clean, shot flawlessly with excellent accuracy - in the M39 that is.
Heck, OP can always opt for an SKS for cheaper gun and cheaper ammo.
Last edited:
John S. Mosby
Inactive
I have to say, the Izhevsk 91/30 I had was an amazing surplus gun. The barrel rifling was as clear-cut lands like new. Came with all the "gear", and prick-spike at the end. Not a blade. I shot the heavy ball 179 grain from mine. Power is like or more than a .308 Nato.
On the 30/06, I'd look for a .273 winchester before a 30/06 all day.
I plan to buy and try out an Italian Carcaino in 6.5 soon!
On the 30/06, I'd look for a .273 winchester before a 30/06 all day.
I plan to buy and try out an Italian Carcaino in 6.5 soon!
kilimanjaro
New member
You're not going to get a genuine, original scoped milsurp for $700 anywhere. If you pay $700 for a nice milsurp and then start drilling and tapping for some aftermarket scope mount, you are a fool. Nothing personal intended, but you would be ruining a good collectable.
Reconsider your wants, if you want to hunt with iron sights, a Swedish Mauser or Swiss K31 will be your tack driver. Forget the Mosins and Israeli Mausers, they're worn out or inherently not MOA rifles. These were all battle rifles of the day, and MOA was not a consideration in mid-century. The Swedes and Swiss had the luxury of neutrality and could thusly continue to make rifles with pre-1914 craftsmanship.
If you want a scope, go get a good sportered Mauser or Springfield, or a P1917. You can get these in excellent condition with a nice scope for $500 or less in gun stores and pawnshops anywhere.
Reconsider your wants, if you want to hunt with iron sights, a Swedish Mauser or Swiss K31 will be your tack driver. Forget the Mosins and Israeli Mausers, they're worn out or inherently not MOA rifles. These were all battle rifles of the day, and MOA was not a consideration in mid-century. The Swedes and Swiss had the luxury of neutrality and could thusly continue to make rifles with pre-1914 craftsmanship.
If you want a scope, go get a good sportered Mauser or Springfield, or a P1917. You can get these in excellent condition with a nice scope for $500 or less in gun stores and pawnshops anywhere.
While I mostly agree, SK makes mounts that are non intrusive and do not damage an original
I have one for the 1917. A bit awkward to see through but goes on and off easily.
It is something to keep in mind, you want to enjoy the old calibers, there are options there that do not involved an original rifle.
My best solution is a modern Savage with a barrel put on that is chambered for the cartridge you want. All the plusses of accuracy (very good with the after market barrels you can get)
I shoot my 1917 mostly with the iron sight but its rare as its both long and good one and works, even the A3 does not work for me.
I have one for the 1917. A bit awkward to see through but goes on and off easily.
It is something to keep in mind, you want to enjoy the old calibers, there are options there that do not involved an original rifle.
My best solution is a modern Savage with a barrel put on that is chambered for the cartridge you want. All the plusses of accuracy (very good with the after market barrels you can get)
I shoot my 1917 mostly with the iron sight but its rare as its both long and good one and works, even the A3 does not work for me.
Blindstitch
New member
And you could scope it without ruining any value.
Cost to ship that ammo though.
Not cheap either.
Don't get me wrong, I am going to do a 7.5 x 57 one of these days, I like the cartridge.
But it does not have a peep sight, 1917 does, 1903A3 does.
Best sight and ammo availability in wide choice at reasonable price puts it there.
Cost benefit wise the 06 wins hands down, you shoot it much you will spend more in ammo by far than you did on the gun.
Great second caliber choice, be it on a Savage conversion or the original K31. Not first choice.
Not cheap either.
Don't get me wrong, I am going to do a 7.5 x 57 one of these days, I like the cartridge.
But it does not have a peep sight, 1917 does, 1903A3 does.
Best sight and ammo availability in wide choice at reasonable price puts it there.
Cost benefit wise the 06 wins hands down, you shoot it much you will spend more in ammo by far than you did on the gun.
Great second caliber choice, be it on a Savage conversion or the original K31. Not first choice.