Accuracy with Concealed Carry Gun

[JohnKSa]

At least one well-known instructor will tell you that if your shots can be covered by your hand, you are shooting too slowly. I agree with that.

There's truth to that, however it's important understand that the point of the statement is maintaining a balance of speed and accuracy that is appropriate to the circumstances of the situation.

A lot of people hear a comment like the one quoted above and get the idea that there's no benefit to being able to produce hand-sized groups at 3 yards and so they're satisfied with groups at that distance that can't be covered with a dinner plate. If they are ever required to shoot at longer distances, they may not be able to score solid hits.

For example, a person who can shoot properly sized self-defense groups at 25 yards would need to have the ability to shoot one hole groups at 3 yards.

In a self-defense situation, one wants to be able to rely on a skill level that automatically assesses the range and selects a rate of fire that is appropriate to the distance involved. It's just as counter-productive to shoot very slowly at 3 yards--making solid hits but giving the attacker the opportunity to fire multiple shots to every one of yours--as it is to blast away at a high rate of fire at 25 yards and never connect.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by JohnKSa:

...it's important understand that the point of the statement is maintaining a balance of speed and accuracy that is appropriate to the circumstances of the situation.

Absolutely.

A lot of people hear a comment like the one quoted above and get the idea that there's no benefit to being able to produce hand-sized groups at 3 yards and so they're satisfied with groups at that distance that can't be covered with a dinner plate. If they are ever required to shoot at longer distances, they may not be able to score solid hits.

Which would, of course, be an incorrect idea.

However, when one considers the odds, one should probably spend most of his or her time practicing firing rapidly with less precision at distances of three to five yards.

It is that judgment that leads us to conclude that a compact pistol with a short sight radius and a long trigger pull will suffice very well most of the time. If I thought otherwise. I would probably make a daily habit of strapping on my STI Guardian, with its fine sights and great trigger pull.

I bought that firearm at a time when I was more concerned about accuracy at longer ranges.

My EDC is a compromise. My practice varies but I spend most of it firing fast at short range.

 

[Brit]

When shooting at a human body, it is not a cardboard target, so shots fired have to be aimed at the center of the torso. The torso you are facing. The mass.

It is kind of easy, if this person is facing you, square on. Some one pointing a gun, with for instance, their left foot forward, a bullet that should have gone through a lung, ripped straight through a muscle, still not pleasant, but not as devastating as a sucking chest wound. Even more difficult, some one shooting with one hand.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Brit:

When shooting at a human body, it is not a cardboard target, so shots fired have to be aimed at the center of the torso. The torso you are facing. The mass.

Yes, that's what they tell you to shoot at.

...not as devastating as a sucking chest wound.

Keep in the mind that a shot in the lung that does not hit anything that will immediately disable, or two such shots in the same lung, may not be very devastating at all.

 

[JohnKSa]

Which would, of course, be an incorrect idea.

Of course. Your point was correct and well-taken. My comments were to aimed at those who would misuse them to rationalize inadequate performance.

...one should probably spend most of his or her time practicing firing rapidly with less precision at distances of three to five yards.

A reasonable strategy. Since I find myself in the position of the devils advocate, I think it's worth mentioning that in my experience, shooters who practice producing good groups at 15-25 yards, firing at the relatively slow rate of a shot or two a second, generally have little problem speeding up and shooting appropriately sized groups at 3-5 yards. On the other hand, it seems noticeably rarer to find people who primarily focus on firing rapid "self-defense-sized" groups at 3-5 yards who also have the ability to slow down a little and make good hits at longer ranges.

Even those who can do both can have difficulty rapidly assessing range and accurately varying their rate of fire on the fly to insure solid hits. I see (and hear) people erring on both sides at timed shooting matches where the range to the targets varies considerably over the stage. I will hear people shooting the entire stage at the same cadence regardless of the fact that the very close targets can be effectively addressed with an extremely high rate of fire--almost ignoring the sights--while those at the much longer distances will require time for sight alignment and demand a much slower cadence.

All that said, it is certainly true that those who tend to focus exclusively on slow fire and extreme accuracy, aren't practicing effectively for overwhelmingly most likely self-defense scenario.

 

[pax]

In a weekend class, with very little work, any good instructor can take someone who has mastered good trigger control and easily get them shooting very very fast for self defense situations. And with good instruction, they will remain adequately accurate at speed. They will be able to balance speed and precision at different distances and in different scenarios, because they have some precision to work with.

In that same weekend class, there will likely be another shooter on the line, someone who has spent a lot of time jerking the trigger as fast as he can in practice. Because he has no foundation in good trigger control, that fast shooter's accuracy sucks coming into the class and it will take him a LOT of hard work to overcome that problem. It probably won't happen in the context of a single weekend, no matter how good the instructor may be. He won't be able to balance speed and precision for self defense work, because he has no precision to bring to the table.

Also? Under stress, you will shoot faster. But you won't shoot more accurately.

Things to consider. For me, my advice is to build a good foundation before you start hammering away.

pax

 

[1-DAB]

Good discussion.

Your target doesn't change size, but your distance does. So keeping all your holes in an 8" or so circle is the goal.

Closer? You can go faster. Further away? Proper aiming and trigger control become very important.

One reason I like IDPA. Good mix of speed and accuracy.

If you can't hit the target going slow, speeding up won't help.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by pax:

...Under stress, you will shoot faster. But you won't shoot more accurately.

Things to consider. For me, my advice is to build a good foundation before you start hammering away

Very wise counsel....as usual.

 

[jimbob86]

Can you shoot your concealed gun with the same accuracy that you shoot other handguns with?

Dunno ...... have not had enough spare cash to shoot any of the "just for fun guns" ..... so probably could shoot the Carry gun BETTER than any other- the Carry gun gets all the trigger time and pistol ammo budget these days.

 

[Striker1]

I have big hands and with the Kahr I just don't seem to be able to consistently press the trigger unlike with the other two I mentioned.

Is this something you just work around and become more proficient with as you shoot more with the concealed gun? Or, is it just too small for my size of hands? I read of others using much larger guns for concealed and am considering it but don't want to switch if eventually, with more practice, I can make the Kahr work. The idea is to conceal and it will be easier to conceal the Kahr than a larger gun.

This is what got my attention. I once had a Kahr CW9 and the same problem with the trigger due to the size of my hand...specifically, the trigger reach and the fact that the grip was so small my trigger finger would actually come into contact with my thumb as I pressed it to the rear. My advice is look for a different pistol that fits your hand size better. The answer for me was a S&W Shield. Other than that the Kahr worked fine...it was just too small for me.

 

[Mitchum]

specifically, the trigger reach and the fact that the grip was so small my trigger finger would actually come into contact with my thumb as I pressed it to the rear.

That is EXACTLY what I was trying to describe. Yes - with the Kahr the trigger pull is long and it is difficult to execute without having to modify your grip. Being the newbie that I am to pistol shooting, I've known that I have a bit of an issue jerking the trigger. In addition to causing grip issues, the longer trigger pull seems to make this issue a bit worse. With the increased delay in firing due to the longer pull, I start anticipating the gun firing and can be more prone to jerk the trigger.

I worked on this a bit today at the range and did see some improvement. In my case I think the accuracy issue with the concealed gun will improve with time and practice. Whether or not I'll ever be able to achieve the same accuracy with the concealed as with a gun which fits me better who knows? As long as I get to the point of being able to shoot a reasonable 5-shot group from 5-10 yards and learn to handle it well I'll probably stay with it. It conceals well and I've had no performance issues.

 

[Limnophile]

The trick is to balance speed and precision.

True. The precision benchmarks I listed are a mixture of time constraints. For example, there are no time constraints (ie, speed is not an issue) for Ransom rest shooting or for NRA Marksman qualification. On the other hand, slow speed works against you in IDPA. My 34-moa average performance and 20-moa goal are based on slow-fire.

Because I would be under pressures of time criticality and fear, and the target would almost certainly be moving in a real-world scenario, I want to hold myself to more strenuous precision goals at the range where pressures are absent.

Personally, I think that getting three or four shots into an area the size of the top of a standard full length tissue box in one second at three to five yards is very good indeed.

Your Kleenex boxtop is about 15% smaller in area than the IDPA -0 thoracic "bullseye." Not too different (although your target of choice is much more narrow), so your goal should get the job done. At 5 yd the 8-in diameter -0 is a 153-moa target.

 

[Microgunner]

Always practice accuracy. Speed is a natural byproduct.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Microgunner:

Always practice accuracy. Speed is a natural byproduct.

It is a good idea to be able to shoot accurately, but I am of the opinion that concentrating entirely on "accurate" shooting is not likely to prepare one for the kind of very rapid response and fast shooting needed to handle a surprise attack by a charging assailant at close range from an unexpected direction.

 

[pax]

Speed isn't a natural byproduct; it has to be deliberately fostered.

Sometimes, the only way to get faster is to shoot faster.

Just be sure that you're using the trigger correctly before you begin pouring on the speed, and always spend at least a few rounds (or a few dry fire iterations) reinforcing good trigger control after you've worked on speed.

pax

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Just be sure that you're using the trigger correctly before you begin pouring on the speed, ...

And good trigger management/control at speed is vital to accuracy.

Trigger control is learned by starting with slow fire (and safe dry practice) consciously and consistently achieving a good surprise break. Diligent conscious practice can lead to compressing the surprise break until the trigger let-off is both smooth and quick. But pushing faster than you're able to properly manage the trigger can bring about excessive trigger jerk.

 

[Mitchum]

Just be sure that you're using the trigger correctly before you begin pouring on the speed

That's where I'm at right now...........trying to use the trigger correctly. I'm hoping that practice with my concealed gun will eventually help me to shoot it more consistently. I'm sure more quality time at the range will help. Right now I'm sure my inconsistency is just lack of experience.

When I'm comfortable with how I'm shooting the gun and accuracy improves I'm going to shift to drawing and firing with some sense of urgency - I'm sure that also will require a good bit of practice.

Great information from all who have contributed on this thread!

 

[pax]

When I'm comfortable with how I'm shooting the gun and accuracy improves I'm going to shift to drawing and firing with some sense of urgency - I'm sure that also will require a good bit of practice.

Good basic plan.

Add this: As with the trigger, so with the drawstroke! Start building that skill slowly, with a strong emphasis on doing it right. It should be smooth, fluid, efficient, and safe. Do it that way, in slow motion, a whole bunch of times before you ever try to speed up.

Also? When you first start working your draw, don't load the gun. You don't need to put those pieces together until you've gotten them under control separately.

pax

 

[Mitchum]

Also? When you first start working your draw, don't load the gun. You don't need to put those pieces together until you've gotten them under control separately.

Good tip! Drawstroke (w/ unloaded gun) is something we practiced in the concealed carry class I took recently. Our instructor was a retired state trooper, and, a very good shooter with good technique ( he's won some national shooting events). So I think at the least I have a good idea of the proper drawstroke for practice.

One thing I have been impressed with as someone who is new to pistol shooting - most everyone is very safety conscious! Always error on the side of caution and assume the gun is loaded until you have personally verified it isn't!!

 

[Microgunner]

Speed isn't a natural byproduct; it has to be deliberately fostered.

I disagree. When beginning a new skill accuracy is the goal If I were learning to knit I'd begin very slowly concentrating on correct technic . As my skill improves so will my speed.
Practicing marksmanship (trigger control, sight picture etc) is fostering speed. IMO.