Accuracy with Concealed Carry Gun

[JohnKSa]

I take an accuracy hit with my carry gun, but it's not too bad. It will still group 12 rounds into less than 5" at 25 yards if I'm really taking my time and concentrating on the sights.

But I didn't go super small--it's a Kahr CW9. I can shoot it pretty well--I don't feel like it's much of a handicap.

 

[Brit]

1-dab.

i would encourage you to seek out and join your local IDPA club. shoot some matches. it's fun, you'll get to shoot your favorite pistol at targets at varying ranges from various positions, including from cover, all under the pressure of a time clock. i've gotten much better doing this.

I do that with a Glock 19, same one I carry.

Works well.

 

[Marty8613]

What is it with Glock folks?

 

[BornToLooze]

Slow fire:

Rapid fire:

 

[pax]

Was up at the range yesterday with my carry gun. Here's a link to what the afternoon looked like (including target pictures): Practice Time. Short answer to your question is that you can achieve excellent accuracy with a carry gun -- as long as you practice, and as long as you practice the right things.

Back when I was editing CCM, Karl Rehn wrote an excellent article titled, "Is a Pocket Gun Enough?" In it, he discussed many of the common experiences people have with little guns and some of the concerns people express about them (caliber, accuracy, capacity, shootability). It's worth reading in its entirety, but one of the more fascinating things he did was that he ran a bunch of people through the same shooting test. Each person took the test twice: once with a full-size gun, and once with a pocket pistol.

He tested three groups of people:

• new or inexperienced shooters
• intermediate shooters who had taken classes
• highly skilled shooters

The higher the score the person shot on the test, the better they did.

What Rehn found was that shooters who were not highly skilled -- this would include new shooters, inexperienced shooters, and shooters who had taken no classes other than the basic carry permit class -- gave up a LOT of skill when they moved to smaller guns. He also found that good shooters could move down to the small guns with very little, or no, loss of skill.

Here's the data:

Note that the trained shooters did twice as well on the skills test as the untrained ones. It wasn't a minor difference.

Bottom line is, learn to be a good shooter. This includes taking professional training classes that help you build your gunhandling skills to the point of automaticity. Then you can choose the most convenient gun to carry without giving up anything on the achievement side of the bargain.

pax

 

[Mitchum]

What Rehn found was that shooters who were not highly skilled -- this would include new shooters, inexperienced shooters, and shooters who had taken no classes other than the basic carry permit class -- gave up a LOT of skill when they moved to smaller guns. He also found that good shooters could move down to the small guns with very little, or no, loss of skill.

Great information, pax! Thanks for taking the time to share.

Though I've been practicing and see some improvement I'm still a new shooter and would likely be one of those that shoots much better with the primary.

Another questions for all - how much of a difference will caliber make, if any? When I started shooting several months ago I made the decision that, should I ever have too shoot in self-defense, I wanted the caliber with stopping power - I chose 45 caliber.

Is there a noticeable difference between say shooting my concealed gun, a Kahr CM 45, versus a concealed 9mm?

At the end of the day I realize I'm a newbie and just need more range time and maybe more instruction. The good part is that I like shooting and as timer permits improvement will come

 

[Neal_G.]

I can shoot my carry guns just as accurately, but that's because my carry guns are usually compact or full size pistols.

However, I've never been willing to carry anything smaller than a Glock 26, which I feel is about as small as you can get and still have a accurate, capable 'fighting pistol'. With my build, I can conceal larger guns effectively even in t-shirts, so why should I carry something much smaller and less accurate for me?

 

[Brit]

As you never know when your gun fight will arrive, if ever, some basics need to be followed, enhance your shooting skills, is #1. Two hands, and both single.
An extra magazine, a good flashlight, on your belt, behind your spare mag.

Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.

Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.

 

[baddarryl]

As you never know when your gun fight will arrive, if ever, some basics need to be followed, enhance your shooting skills, is #1. Two hands, and both single.
An extra magazine, a good flashlight, on your belt, behind your spare mag.

Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.

Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.

Great post, but for some it is not possible to always carry the same. I must change up for work. I would say do the same routine as you say with each weapon carried, but try to keep that to the absolute minimum.

 

[45_auto]

9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

So why are .40's and .45's so popular as carry weapons if a 9mm is just as lethal?

Do you have anything besides your opinion to justify your statement?

All of the studies that I've seen that are backed by actual research and fact conclude that bigger holes are better than smaller holes and more holes are better than less holes.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Brit:

Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

Lethality really isn't what we are looking for, is it?

But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.

True.

Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.

Good thinking.

Posted by 45_auto:

So why are .40's and .45's so popular as carry weapons if a 9mm is just as lethal?

Probably, because many people confuse the boom and blast at the muzzle, and the recoil, with wounding effectiveness.

And/or--they remember the legend of the .45 in the Philippines. I had always thought the .45 to be superior, so I bout one. Now a carry a 9MM.

I am not alone.

All of the studies that I've seen that are backed by actual research and fact conclude that bigger holes are better than smaller holes and more holes are better than less holes.

True, but consider how little difference there is in diameter, and the importance of "more holes.

 

[Brit]

45 Auto,

The FBI going back to the 9mm cartridge says something, they have lots of research money to do just that, research.

 

[pax]

<Moderator Hat On>

Caliber debates fall outside the Tactics & Training subject area, so ...

Please take the caliber wars down to the handgun discussion forums. I'm sure the mods in those forums will thank us for it. Those guys love that stuff.

</Moderator Hat>

pax

 

[mavracer]

Obviously I can't shoot my LCR as well as my 6" GP 100, but I shoot the little guns really well.

 

[Mobuck]

I've used my "carry pistol" to shoot 3 coyotes, 4-5 groundhogs, 5-6 skunks, and 3-4 coons at ranges from 10-40 yards. There's no question in my mind as to whether I can put my bullets on a target @10-25'.

 

[Dragline45]

My carry gun right now is a S&W Shield, and while I don't shoot it as well as my full size handguns it is perfectly acceptable for combat accuracy. I will be switching out the trigger soon though, my Shield came with the Massachusetts compliant trigger, and it is hands down the heaviest trigger I have ever felt on any gun. While I shoot the Shield pretty well, I know that I could shoot it a whole lot better once I replace that trigger.

 

[Limnophile]

When I got my CPL three years ago I had in my mind 1 minute-of-angle (moa) precision as a goal from my rifle shooting days. Needless to say, I was greatly disappointed with my initial results with centerfire pistols. I turned to the internet to find various precision benchmarks to better assess my performance. Here are some I've found standardized to moa, from high precision to lower:

• For $7K you can buy a custom full-size 1911 that will shoot 2.0-in groups at 50 yd from a Ransom rest -- that's 3.8 moa.
• You can buy a custom carry 1911 chambered for $5K that is guaranteed to shoot 1.5-in groups at 25 yd, from a Ransom rest I believe -- that's 5.7 moa.
• The black center of a 50-yd slow fire bullseye target (the 8-ring or better) is 8.0-in in diameter (bullseye shooters can use only one hand) -- 15 moa.
• The black center (9-ring and up) of a 25-yd timed fire and rapid fire bullseye target has a diameter of 5.5 in -- 21 moa.
• The -0 thoracic "bullseye" on an IDPA target has an 8-in diameter, and the furthest distance it can be placed is 35 yd -- 22 moa.
• 80% of IDPA targets must be placed between 5 and 15 yd; at 15 yd the -0 thoracic "bulleye" is 51 moa.
• The NRA Pistol Marksman rating (only the 3rd rung on ladder of that program) requires placing 10 shots within a 6-in diameter plate with an unsupported two-hand grip with no time constraints -- 115 moa.

Conclusion: Handguns are nowhere near as precise as rifles. I would hope most carry guns are capable of achieving NRA Marksman performance, so that's a good initial goal. 115 moa equates to an 8.4-in group at 7 yd. I have shot my four CZ compacts in one range session, four 5-shot groups from each gun, in an attempt to compare them. The precision among them was statistically indiscernible, and the overall average precision was 34 moa. My goal is to get that down to 20 moa.

 

[OldMarksman]

For Concealed Carry...

The trick is to balance speed and precision.

After one has learned the basics, it is important to consider what effective defensive shooting will likely entail.

Rather than shooting at a stationary two-dimensional target marked with the important target areas, the defender is likely to be faced with a large, rapidly moving, three dimensional target that is not facing him or her.

But--inside that target, where they cannot be seen, are the several real targets---small targets--the vital parts of the anatomy that must be damaged to effect anything other than a psychological stop.

Even if the scene were to unfold in "slow motion", the defender would have a tough time deciding where to shoot the attacker to do that damage. And the scene will not develop slowly.

The targets are small, hidden, and moving. Hitting the vital internal parts will likely be a matter of luck. That means that the defender will have to hit with multiple shots in very rapid succession.

Personally, I think that getting three or four shots into an area the size of the top of a standard full length tissue box in one second at three to five yards is very good indeed.

Well, I cannot do any better, anyway.

 

[1-DAB]

good summary Limnophile.

my rule of thumb is if my shots can be covered by my hand, i'm doing ok. but the zero down in a IDPA target is perfectly acceptable, both for competition, and for practical use.

part two: use good ammo that has passed the FBI tests.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by 1-DAB:

my rule of thumb is if my shots can be covered by my hand, i'm doing ok.

At least one well-known instructor will tell you that if your shots can be covered by your hand, you are shooting too slowly. I agree with that.

But--it is a probably a good generalization tp say that at least one dimension of each of the vital parts of the anatomy is about the size of a closed fist.

The problems are (1) that are moving and (2) that one cannot see where they are within the attacker's body.

In self defense, one is not shooting at a stationary two dimensional target with marked scoring areas.

Equally importantly, one is not shooting at a homogenous target such as a water jug, on which every hit counts.

What that means is that one must elect to shoot several shots very quickly.

part two: use good ammo that has passed the FBI tests.

I could not agree more.