According to Chris Baker, Lever Action Rifles reputation for ruggedness/reliability is undeserved.

Col Jeff Cooper (do you guys know about him? :) opined that the Carbine version of the M94/336 in 30-30 or 44 mag would make the perfect "urban police rifle"

Why? Not because of rugged reliability but because of of being light, compact, smooth handling characteristics, etc. ....of course, complete with tang peep and butt cuff :)

I would rather hunt deer with a M94 than a full military 1917, 03, or Garand....

But for self defense, home and otherwise, and survival, I'd have to think about it....since I reload for both 30-06 and 30-30 it's a toss up.
 
Unfortunately, Chris Baker apparently either has never heard of Jeff Cooper, or thinks his Youtube channel has more clout than Cooper's writings. And with the Tacticool crowd, he just might be right. :rolleyes:
Or, he is intentionally spouting BS, stirring up controversy for more views, the most likely scenario in my opinion. ;)
Most of his other Videos are pretty good, so let's not beat on the kid too bad. :D
 
I'd go with a high-quality semi as the most reliable rifle action, even more reliable that the best bolt actions.

I'd love to own an H&K 416, but not at 7k per copy.

I believe the US Military is transitioning to the H&K 416.

From memory alone, the H&K 416 fired tens of thousands of rounds w/o a single malfunction. The rifle outlasted shooters torture testing it. Reports were it was an elevated echelon of accurate.

I'm a big game hunter. All of my rifles are bolt actions. I have no use for an H&K 416 except to have a blast perforating targets.

https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/assault-rifles/hk416-a5/hk416-a5-145/overview.html

On the other hand, I could put a very lightweight H&K 416 chambered for .308 Win with a five round magazine (keep weight to absolute minimum) as a North American big game rifle. Heavy rifles suck at Rocky Mountain altitude.
 
If I had to go into thick stuff after a very mean critter (Alaskan coastal griz), I'd want an old school Marlin 1895 loaded with max loaded .45/70 rounds.
 
By modern standards, lever action designs from the late 1800s are more complex and prone to failure than many more modern designs. They have quite a few small parts and tend to be sensitive to bullet shape. Does that make them bad? Not for most uses. Does it make them slightly less good than other designs, in terms of being able to handle any compatible ammo or withstand high round counts? Yes.

How many people really do 1000+ round tests with lever guns? It is fairly standard for semi-autos these days.

I have seen some comments about lever guns as being the "end of the world" reliable gun. It doesn't make that much sense, as Mr. Baker pointed out.

Firearms design and engineering has improved since 1873. That doesn't make old guns bad or useless. We should just acknowledge the reality that, in terms of ability to withstand use and abuse over the long term, lever designs are not the best out there.
 
How many people really do 1000+ round tests with lever guns? It is fairly standard for semi-autos these days.
Click to expand...

Me.

I think its safe to say that I have probably put a lot more than 1000 rounds down range out of my Uberti 1860 Henry over the last ten years.

pmyWDDCDj
 
I'd go with a high-quality semi as the most reliable rifle action, even more reliable that the best bolt actions.
Click to expand...

In order for me to accept this statement as serious, you'll need to define what you consider a "high-quality semi" and what you consider "reliable".

And, then, I'd have to agree, which I doubt I will.

Its your opinion and you're entitled to it, but please make your case WHY you think that, since it is so much different than the "accepted wisdom".
 
Hi 44 AMP,

I seriously did. The H&K 416. If I were to bet, I'd bet the side that says it has the most reliable action on the planet
 
BTW 44AMP,

What's "accepted wisdom"? Whose "accepted wisdom" were you citing?

Old myths and legends die very slow and resistant deaths.
 
I'd go with a high-quality semi as the most reliable rifle action, even more reliable that the best bolt actions.
Click to expand...
I profoundly doubt that statement and I'm certainly not buying it at face value.
The gas operating system on a lever action never fails or fouls because it is non-existent.
We probably all know that you should only use correct ammo for your gun....
But when is a, "30-06", not really a 30-06? If you have an M1 Garand, I hear that it's just not suitable for a whole lot of hunting ammo that can actually damage the rifle... Semi-autos are substantially more choosey about their diet.
If you have a lever-action 30-30, all of the commercial hunting ammo is made for it.
If someone said that there are bolt-action rifles that are more reliable than the best lever-actions, I could maybe go along with that...

The lever actions I have had proved to be reliable the whole time of my ownership of them. All semi-autos that I have owned or observed in action have been well less than 100 percent reliable.
 
The "accepted wisdom" I'm referring to has been around as long as semi automatics, and it is that, by the very nature of their mechanisms they are more ammunition sensitive than a manually operated action.

Quite literally the manually operated action will cycle the same (because the shooter cycles it) whether the ammo is full power or just barely enough to have the bullet clear the barrel.

While there are limits, the manually operated arm also can be "force fed" better than most semis.

I was amused by the video describing the recoil of an 8lb+ 5.56mm as "vicious".

Lots of running around rapid firing at pistol ranges, which showed that, for that it seems like a good tool. Didn't see anything relating to actual riflery or reliability other than other than discussion about piston vs direct impingement gas systems, which was nothing new to me.

The HK 416 seems to be a good improvement over the original AR system, but I found nothing in the video or the articles you linked comparing it to anything other than the M16 system for reliability.

Show me where the HK jams less than a Mauser 98 (without operator error) and I'll consider it.

I've got extensive experience with the M14/M1A, M16A1, FAL, HK 91 AK 47 SKS, SVT 40, M1 Garand and others, numerous smgs and semi auto versions, every small arm in standard US Army use in the mid 70s, I was a Small Arms repairman (meaning I worked on everything from the 4.2in mortar on down) for Uncle Sam, and I've studied machine gun design as a hobby for almost half a century.

Every one of them has the same unavoidable Achilles heel, they won't run on ammo outside of their design parameters, while a manually operated firearm, has a wider range of tolerance.

When I think of reliability, I think of military bolt actions, Mausers and such with their massive claw extractor and SMLE's with their "generous" chambers that ensured that a round with what ever crud it carried went in, fired and came out.

I think of Double rifles, where the entire second gun was built in to ensure one of them worked, no matter what.

The HK 416 might well be the most reliable semi auto but an 8lb 11in barrel .223 with a $3,200+ price tag PLUS needing the Federal license for an SBR just isn't for me, no matter how reliable it is.
 
AMP 44,

Legends and myths die a slow and resistant death.

I'm good with what you want to believe.

I own semi handguns that are far more reliable than revolvers, and that includes Smith and Colt revolvers.

I've read that a copy of Springfield Armory's Hellcat has surpassed 20,000 rounds w/o a malfunction. I'd like to see a revolver do that.

Buy a Springfield Armory 1911-A1 TRP .45 ACP. It'll become the most accurate and reliable handgun you'll own.
 
Overall... meh.

My Savage 99 in .300 Savage would be high on my list for just about any situation in which I needed a rifle.



"Col Jeff Cooper (do you guys know about him? opined that the Carbine version of the M94/336 in 30-30 or 44 mag would make the perfect "urban police rifle"

For several decades the LAPD issued Winchester 94s to patrol sergeants, to be carried in the trunks of their patrol cars.
 
Hi Mike Irwin,

The original Savage 99 was an excellent big game hunting rifle.

And you're right about situations where hunters require rifle reliability. None of my bolt action rifles have ever failed. Ever. For many years I had only one big game rifle. I took only my Model 700 .270 Win on many Rocky Mountain hunts.

It terms of absolute rifle action reliability, I'd go with the H&K 416, a battle rifle designed for absolute reliability under harsh battle conditions. Big game hunters do not require that elevated degree of absolute reliability.
 
Sanch, I own a lot of semis and a lot of revolvers, I've not had a revolver fail to shoot. I only have a couple semis that Have not failed..... No way in my experience is a semi more reliable than a revolver.
 
Hi Pete,

I'm completely good with your beliefs. My only request is that you consider whether your beliefs are true.

I've owned two S&W revolvers that suffered catastrophic failures, meaning there were no longer functional without repair. I have direct knowledge of I have no clue of how many catastrophic S&W revolver failures.

I've never experienced a failure of any kind with any Sig "P" series handgun. By a huge margin, my Sig P229 .40 S&W was the most reliable and accurate duty handgun I've carried. I have no clue of how many thousands of rounds I've fired through it with zero malfunctions.

Revolvers are far more complex with more parts, many of which are fragile, than simplistic design of semis.

When revolvers fail, and they will fail, their failures are almost always catastrophic meaning its out of the fight. It'll transition to a throwing weapon. In the extremely rare instance where a semi fails, it's remedied within seconds and back in the fight.

Here's a fact for you. I've had direct knowledge of many S&W revolvers suffering catastrophic failures, most of which involved timing. I've seen thousands of semis on firing lines. I've never, ever seen one fail. Ever!

I've recently read that a Springfield Armory Hellcat 9MM semi has been tortured tested at better than 20K rounds w/o a single failure and it's still going. No revolver can equal that.

When the FBI requested submissions for its specialized 1911-A1 .45 ACP, its minimum criteria appeared impossible to meet. Bill Wilson said no 1911-A1 could meet the FBI's minimum criteria. Springfield Armory's submission was the only 1911-A1 that met and exceeded the FBI's minimum criteria. From memory alone, it fired 50k rounds w/o maintenance and experienced no failures. The FBI went with Springfield Armory. It's Custom Shop 1911-A1 is known as the FBI model and was adopted by many law enforcement agencies' tactical units. I'd like to see any revolver fired 5k round w/o failure.

I own a Springfield Armory TRP .45 ACP. It's the factory production model of its Custom Shop's FBI gun. It's the most accurate and reliable handgun I own. It's at least as reliable as my Sigs if not more so. I'd take my TRP in head-to-head competition with any revolver for reliability and accuracy. I can tell you that no revolver would stand a chance against a Springfield Armory TRP, and that includes the best S&W and Cold has to offer. I'll exclude Korth revolvers because I have no direct knowledge of them.

Chris Kile carried a Springfield Armory TRP .45 in combat.

Legends die slowly and with persistent resistance. While it might have been true that many, many years ago, revolvers were more reliable than semis, modern manufacturing technology has inverted that relationship. Assuredly due to revolver loyalty and resistance to change, many shooters will not accept the fact that most modern semis are far more reliable than any revolver. Regardless of those beliefs, truth remains true.

I own S&W and Ruger revolvers. In the rare times that I carry a self-defense handgun, it's a Springfield Armory EMP 3 9MM loaded with 147 grain Fed HST LE standard pressure rounds. It's infinitely more reliable than any revolver I own.
 
Get the Popcorn! :)

Great debate, for a handgun thread. Sanch, if you search, this topic has been battered back and forth many times. In a different thread, I would debate you, as I'm a revolver guy at heart... but not here. :D. Wrong thread, wrong topic.

Go to the revolver section and pick a fight... you will find it. :D
 
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