According to Chris Baker, Lever Action Rifles reputation for ruggedness/reliability is undeserved.

While lever actions were never adopted by our military in any great numbers, the US Government sure bought a lot of them, for the Marshalls Service, Railroad agents, Forest Service, Parks and Wildlife, plus some military purchases. You find small numbers of guns of all types in military service. The Army game warden at Ft. Wainwright, AK had an issued S&W Model 29. (1976) I'm sure the Army had a few lever guns at some more woodsy postings. While not combat rugged, they accompany a lot of people with outdoor or rugged jobs and provide reliable service.
 
This is the point about his opinion, it seems that if its not "infantry battle rifle" rugged its reputation is undeserved.

The only place traditional lever guns fall drastically short of military service rifles is surviving hand to hand combat.

Since the 1870s, a lot of lever guns have spent a lot of time outdoors, in every possible weather by all kinds of people who didn't do much, if any, hand to hand combat with them.

ever see a 100+ year old lever gun without a shred of blueing left on the receiver (or much else, anywher)? but still mechanically sound and accurate enough to do the job it was built for, just as well as it did when new??
I've seen quite a few.

Here's something seldom brought up, while soldiers generally don abuse their guns (their life might depend on them working) they don't care for them the way a civilian usually does. Wear out or break your infantry rifle, the Army will fix it or give you another. Do that to YOUR rile and YOU will be BUYING the replacement.

Seems like Mr Baker feels that if you CAN beat your rifle to death, then its not rugged or reliable enough to deserve that reputation.
 
IIRC, most of the fragility/reliability issues with lever action rifles can be traced to 2 things. First, they are usually tube magazines. Tube magazines usually have thin walls and thus can be dented. Second, the lifter mechanism is a potential point of failure.

Note that neither of these issues apply to vertical feed/box magazine lever action rifles. I have had extensive past experience with both Savage 99 (internal vertical feed) and Winchester 88 (box magazine) rifles. While the Winchester 88 does have a complicated action, neither of them suffered from "traditional" reliability issues associated with lever action rifles. In fact, I never had any reliability issues with either of them.

Much of the "complexity" issues are associated with actual complex mechanisms such as the Winchester 94s. I have not noticed any such issues with the simpler mechanism of the Marlin 336. But there is a history of lifter issues even with the Marlin.

------- Added

Note that the same reliability issue vectors that are associated with lever action rifle are also present with pump action shotguns. They are tube fed, with thin metal tubes that can be dented. They have similar lifter mechanisms, and are similarly complex.

Notice that pump shotguns were used in combat with good effect in the trenches of WWI. Nobody really doubted that they were suitable for combat. They were used by our military before WWI, through WWII and all the way through the Vietnam conflict. They are still used as riot guns to this day. Again, nobody doubts their reliability.

There are valid reasons to doubt the tactical value of lever action rifles. The main ones are that they are difficult to use in the prone position (you have to roll the weapon on its side to work the action), and that they are slow to reload (a problem that people seem to ignore regarding tube fed shotguns).

Reliability? Nah, that's not one of them. They are proven by over a century of evidence.
 
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Lever actions excel at straight wall, short range powerful calibers. The ones made to use more traditional longer range cartridge's are novelty and fun but not practical. Keep the Lever actions in their niche as a great short range, small to medium game rifle and stop worrying if you can snipe wamp rats at 1000m.
As for military use, at that time hand to hand combat was inevitable. So they wanted to put weapons in soldiers hands that would serve them in both realms. The lever action didn't fit that mold so they moved on. Yes you can whack a mole with one but a total re-design was required for bayonet and honestly reloading a Lever action took too long.

I love my lever actions, jams, misfeeds and all. Not that they happen any more or less then other rifles to include my ARs.
 
@Bfglowkey

My personal favorite Lever Actions are traditional carbines chambered in .44-40, .45 Long Colt, .44 Magnum, etc.
 
Ya'll really think John Wayne and Chuck Conners would have used lever guns if they weren't the best? Come on now!
 
There are valid reasons to doubt the tactical value of lever action rifles. The main ones are that they are difficult to use in the prone position

I will admit they are not good rifles for a low prone position. On the other hand, you also cannot take a low prone position with and AR or AK with a 30rnd stick. (unless you turn the rifle sideways :rolleyes:)

There's no free lunch.

The ones made to use more traditional longer range cartridge's are novelty and fun but not practical.

So, lever guns in rounds like .30-06, .308Win, .284, .243, etc. are not practical?? Not practical for WHAT???

Another interesting point brought up, a lever rifle (or pump) isn't good enough but a pump shotgun is?? And, pump shotguns seem to be preferred over semi auto ones by those in miitary/police service...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying a lever gun is a suitable military arm today, nor is it superior to what we are currently using in most ways.

what I am saying is that it is wrong to denigrate, deplore or despise a lever gun for being what it was made to be and not being a modern combat rifle or semi auto derivative.
 
He's entitled to his opinion as is everyone in this country . . . . . at least for now.

Just happens to be that he's wrong but it doesn't matter at all to me what he thinks.

He was pooping in his diapers long after I had been shooting leverguns, pump actions, bolt actions, semi-autos, and single shots for decades.

In fact, I'd also shot my 90 and 105mm main guns and a number of 50 cal and 30 cal MGs on my tank before he could even talk.

But hey, we're all just know nothing rookies compared to him, right?

If you don't think so, just ask him.
 
I bought a BLR, believing it would be a good survival rifle.
It would be, as long as the internals are kept microscopically clean.
And field stripping it is out of the question... Most BLR owners are not up to the task of taking their rifle apart and re-assembling it.
I still love it, because it's beautiful.
Bought another gun for a SHTF weapon.
 
Howdy

No idea who Chris Baker is and don't really care.

When Oliver Winchester began manufacturing the 1860 Henry, the first practical lever action rifle, the first few hundred had iron frames. Production did not actually begin until 1862, during the Civil War. Winchester tried to get military contracts for his rifle, which was the most advanced, state of the art design at the time. That is why he soon had the frames changed from iron to bronze. Yes, bronze, not brass as most shooters believe. Winchester wanted to sell some to the Navy and felt the bronze frames would stand up better to the corrosive atmosphere at sea than an iron frame would. He never did secure any government contracts for the Henry rifle, but as has been stated, several states purchased them for their militia units. And let's be clear about this. The Henry rifle was expensive. It cost a lot to make them. A standard Henry rifle cost $42.00 in 1862. Adjusted for inflation that is $1,082.80 today. Let's not forget too, that the general in charge of procurement of firearms during the Civil War was dead set against repeating firearms. He believed issuing repeating rifles to the troops would result in wasted ammunition. That is why the Civil War was fought almost completely with muzzle loading rifled muskets. The only reason the Spencer carbine was purchased by the Army was because Lincoln personally ordered it, overriding the General's opinion.

Winchester continued for years, trying to obtain military contracts. Although he did not get any from the US government, he sold lots of Model 1866 lever guns to foreign governments. These were usually sold in the 'musket' configuration. During the 19th Century, Winchester and many other manufacturers built their rifles in 3 different configurations. This was not solely based on barrel length. Rifles had a crescent shaped butt plate, the fore end was supported by an internal dovetail and had a metal cap, and the magazine was suspended under the barrel by a hanger dovetailed into the barrel. Carbines were usually shorter than rifles, had differently shaped butt, no fore end cap, and the magazine and fore end were held in place by barrel bands. Muskets were kind of like a carbine on steroids. Longer barrel, barrel bands, bayonet mount, and most important, the fore end extended almost the entire length of the barrel. I always thought the full length fore end on the muskets was weird, but never thought of it until now. I suspect the full length wood was there to protect the magazine, because yes, it is easy to dent the tubular magazine of a lever gun, and if the dent is too big ammunition will not feed.

This photo shows two Winchester Model 1873 Rifles at the top, a long barrel and a shot barrel, a carbine in the middle, and a musket at the bottom. As I said I never thought about it before, but I suspect that since most of these rifled muskets were sold to foreign governments, the extra long wood was there to protect the tubular magazine from being dented.


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Oooops, hit reply before I meant to.

Allow me to continue.

Yes, the early lever guns were less massive than the early single shot cartridge rifles. Look for instance at the Trapdoor Springfield. It fired the 45-70 round, with 70 grains of powder inside and a 500 grain bullet. The early lever guns were chambered for much less powerful cartridges, such as the 44 Henry Rimfire, 44-40, and 38-40. The Henry cartridge originally carried a 216 grain bullet over 26 grains of powder. The bullet was later reduced to 200 grains. The 44-40 round was the successor to the Henry round and it had a 200 grain bullet over 40 grains of powder. 38-40 had a 180 grain bullet over 40 grains of powder.

It was not until the Winchester Model 1876 came along that a cartridge of the same class as the 45-70 could be chambered in a lever gun. The 45-75 cartridge carried a 350 grain bullet over 75 grains of powder. It was nominally more powerful than the 45-70, but used a slightly shorter tapered case in order to fit into the toggle link frame. The Model 1876 Winchester, sometimes called the Centennial Model, was a big, heavy rifle, much bigger than the 1860 Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters. It had to be to take the power of the 45-75 round. Yes, I have seen musket configuration 1876 Winchesters, but I don't know if many were sold to foreign governments. If you want to see a Model 1876 Winchester, watch Tom Selleck's movie Crossfire Trail. He had two original 1876s cobbled together into one functioning rifle.

The John Browning designed Model 1886 Winchester was slightly lighter, and much stronger than the Model 1876, and had a frame long enough to accept the same 45-70 round that the Trapdoors fired. As a matter of fact, by that time most of the Trapdoors issued to the Army were the shorter carbine versions and were firing the reduced power 45-70 round with only 55 grains of powder inside.

So I don't know what Chris Baker's problem is with lever guns. Yeah, they cannot compete with an AK47 or an AR15. But they were pretty darn good at the time they first came out.
 
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On the other hand, you also cannot take a low prone position with and AR or AK with a 30rnd stick. (unless you turn the rifle sideways )

Could that be why, back in the '70s in the Army, with the exception of the auto-rifleman who got 30 round magazines, we were issued 20 round magazines for our M-16s? And yes, we did use them in the prone position.
 
It could be why they issued 20rnd mags, though I always thought it was because they would fit in your shirt pocket..:D


I was in support units, not line infantry or an automatic rifleman and got 20rnd mags for our M16A1s in basic (75) and at my first duty station (9th Infantry). A year later transferred to 2nd Armored and everyone had 30 rnd mags, including us in the FSC 498th Spt Bn.

Point here is that the design of the receiver mag well, pistol grip and magazine prevent a really low prone position as does the clearance needed to work a lever gun's lever without going sideways.

Does it matter that the guy with a Garand or a bolt gun can get a few inches lower? probably not in the grand scheme of things, but it might matter to some individual somewhere, sometime...
 
You folks do know the Army ain't necessarily right about the weapons they choose(lowest cost etc.) I mean look what Sitting Bull's troops did to Custer's command. Sitting Bull's guys used Lever Actions, Custer's had Army Issue Single Shots. We were issued the experimental M16 to go to war with in 1967, some new ones didn't not work, any dirt and it would shut the rifle down if it was one that worked. I could get by with a good lever or bolt action if I had to. The ARs we have now are great but the 50 ones years ago, not so much.
 
I mean look what Sitting Bull's troops did to Custer's command. Sitting Bull's guys used Lever Actions, Custer's had Army Issue Single Shots.

While the rifles did, of course, play a part, its wrong to assume they were the only or even the deciding factor.

SOME of Sitting Bull's forces had lever guns, but by no means all, or even the majority. They were not uniformly armed.

Custer split his command into 3 groups and sent them where they could not support each other. He left behind a pair of Gatling guns, believing the heavy guns and the mules to pack them would slow him down.

Custer was essentially caught on open ground, and the fact that his group was outnumbered something like 10 to 1 might have played a small part, as well. ;)
 
Custer was essentially caught on open ground, and the fact that his group was
outnumbered something like 10 to 1 might have played a small part, as well....
...and the fact that the Indians didn't react as doctrine and long experience said they would by not scattering in headlong flight from surprise attack from multiple directions.
 
Custer's mistake was the biggest factor but don't think the repeating rifle didn't play a part in the wipe out.
 
levers

My first thought was.." who the heck is Chris Baker"?

Next was, so I guess what,..... 7 million or so M94 owners, and an equally large number of Marlin 336's, have got it all wrong?

Finally, is there still not a demand for big bore lever rifles in AK, to the point of modifying valuable, original rifles, to serve as guide guns/bush rifles for those spending a lot of time in wild places with big bears?

Sensationalism.
 
I think it likely that the availability of Marlins in .45-70 and .450 Marlin have probably about ended the practice of converting Win 71s from .348 to .450 Alaskan.

Especially when factory ammo was available...
 
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