Accidentially reengaging my 1911 safety

Most folks who don't see the advantage of the thumbs forward technique usually don't understand the two handed grip either.
But if someone actually shows them how to do it properly, they quickly become converts.
The essence of the whole thing isn't evident from just looking at pictures and reading about how it's supposed to be done.
 
While a little off topic, I was one who resisted the thumbs forward grip for years. I was convinced the old fashioned way was just as good, but all of the best shooters I know and virtually all world class pistol shooters use a thumbs forward grip. Many here whose judgement I respect advocate its use. Over the last couple of years I have worked hard to learn and master the grip. I likely am too old to master anything, but my shooting speed and accuracy has improved as a result. Is it necessary to shoot well? Absolutely not. Is it a better way? It is for many.

The notion that thumbs forward is a weaker grip is completely untrue. Done correctly it is stronger and more stable.
 
The 1911 / old school apologists always come out in droves. It cracks me up.

Theres no safety sweep issue on pretty much any fighting handgun except the 1911. Not on the Sig P-series, not on Glocks.

Thumbs forward is designed to align the bones of the forearm at the target, allowing your body to 1) orient itself along the centerline towards the target, which is the natural engagement posture for humans and 2) use the skeletal structure to absorb recoil. The results are pretty damned clear, as other users have noted: whenever we track time and accuracy (IPSC, 3-gun, etc.), thumbs forward is the standard. Whenever we track raw performance (professional military), thumbs forward is the standard. You can argue all you like about other grip methods, but the people doing it for real real will keep on using what works best for real world applications.

This whole theme of making up excuses for loving an antiquated system and platform is just so full of cognitive dissonance. You just don't see the same amount of threads / issues related to 1911s in other designs, straight up. Neither my glock nor my sig have ever given two craps what kind of ammo I put through them: I literally have never had to think about it. There's no 'well, MY Sig doesn't like brand X, so I feed it brand Y. ymmv.' It's just feed it ammo, and go. There's no 'well, my shooting grip makes it impossible for me to shoot it.' I just shoot it. Etc.

Why even bother with a platform that has the potential for your natural shooting grip to engage the safety and thereby render the weapon inoperable?
 
For the record, I have a thumb safety on my EDC, a Ruger SR9c. It is a fine striker fired fighting handgun, that suits me well. I have many thousands of rounds through it, and thousands more of draw and dry fire. I have never unintentionally engaged or unintentionally disengaged the safety. I also have never forgotten to disengage the safety when presenting the gun to fire.

This thread is not about 1911s or external safeties. It is about a faulty grip.
 
Why even bother with a platform that has the potential for your natural shooting grip to engage the safety and thereby render the weapon inoperable?

So, rather than put my thumb on the safety, I'm supposed to buy a gun without a manual safety?

That seems sort of like cutting off your head because you have a toothache.
 
RickB said:
So, rather than put my thumb on the safety, I'm supposed to buy a gun without a manual safety?

That seems sort of like cutting off your head because you have a toothache.

Hardly a fair analogy. More like buying a car that has 4 wheels (no thumb safety) instead of 5 (an extra, superfluous safety) because you don't need 5 to get around.

If you prefer a thumb safety, carry on.

Personally, it seems an extraneous liability. It would seem as though many law enforcement agencies and military units agree. As do most gun-gamers. If you're a military professional / gun ninja like Travis Haley or whoever, and a 1911 fits your mission profile, then I'm going to guess that the extraordinary level of training and proficiency of that shooter exceeds the limitations that other's struggle with. Quite frankly, such a professional would outshoot most all of us with whatever they were given.

I don't really give a crap what people carry / shoot. When their arguments are faulty, their logic flawed, and their opinions bandied about as righteous fact flying in the face of reason (none of which I am directly accusing you of, but rather speaking generally), I'm just stunned. If you care to carry a firearm handicapped by lower capacity, higher relative weight, reliability issues, ammunition feed issues, a grip safety that can fail and isn't necessary, a thumb safety that isn't necessary and can fail, etc., that's on you. There are other options out there where you don't have to make those compromises.

A Glock or Sig will never cause me to ask the question 'will my shooting grip engage the safety and thereby render the weapon inoperable?' Never. So, I wonder what the point of even asking that question is.
 
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Safety is an individual preference. Anyone hand/muzzel practiced knows his/her motion in revealing and aiming, and shooting the firearm. Some like the personal "No Safety" firearm, while others like the one they bought/traded for their own comfort. If you have a 1911 that you have not practiced with, why ask the question?
 
I would bet that the modern larger sized "tactical" thumb safety is the culprit behind the OP's issue. Smaller safeties are not as likely to get in the way of the thumb forward grip.



A proper thumbs forward grip has proven to be better in my experience. I have seen groups and recoil control improve for several people, in the span of one magazine, when switching to the thumb forward grip. Some pistols have quirks that mean attention must be paid to your grip to ensure it does not cause issues.

The OP's glock for example... the VP9, PPQ, P320, and other with slide stops farther rearward are prone to issues with riding the thumb with modern thumb forward grip.

Some people also have hand shape and size that exacerbates the issue.


While I do not carry a 1911, I don't look down on the platform. They are a lot of fun to shoot, and easy to shoot well.

Made by a respectable company, the likelihood of it working well with pretty much any ammo, is high. The controlled feed mechanism JMB designed into the pistol, was very reliable, when using proper magazines and ball ammo... But it took some time to tweak the design for using HP ammo. Magazine geometry and feed ramp geometry all had to be tweaked over the years.

Setup properly, and with good grip technique, there shouldn't be any issues either.


A safety on a 1911, used properly is disengaged on the draw, and its design is robust. So, I don't see it as a hinderance or liability in and of itself.

I would also argue that a grip safety is a good idea on a pistol like the 1911 and not extraneous.


Any argument that the safeties on a 1911 can fail and are a liability, yet fails to consider that a firearm without a safety can also fail mechanically... is a bit flawed. Especially considering some modern designs have more moving parts or are otherwise more complicated than a 1911.


I personally do not think 1911s (and similar) make good carry guns for many users, especially new shooters. They require greater diligence in training that some do not do, or have simply have lack of experience in.

So while I may like the 1911 pistol, I do not extol its virtues for and in, all things pistol.
 
I personally do not think 1911s (and similar) make good carry guns for many users, especially new shooters. They require greater diligence in training that some do not do, or have simply have lack of experience in.

Some years ago I read an interview with or article by (I forget which) Mas Ayoob, discussing the SA vs the DA semi auto for police use. In this case the example guns were a 1911A1 and a Sig P220.

He felt the DA gun to be better for police use. NOT because of the mechanical safety features (safety vs decocker, etc.), but because of the human "safety" factor.

It was explained this way, the 1911A1 is a soldier's gun. I the normal course of events when a soldier has an enemy in his sights, he shoots them. The 1911A1 is a very able, effective, and efficient tool for that.

Police, on the other hand, have to hold suspects at gun point, OFTEN. The idea being not to shoot them unless necessary, having the longer, heavier DA trigger pull reduced the risks of an accidental shooting.

I always thought that made sense.
 
It was explained this way, the 1911A1 is a soldier's gun. I the normal course of events when a soldier has an enemy in his sights, he shoots them. The 1911A1 is a very able, effective, and efficient tool for that.

Police, on the other hand, have to hold suspects at gun point, OFTEN. The idea being not to shoot them unless necessary, having the longer, heavier DA trigger pull reduced the risks of an accidental shooting.

I always thought that made sense.

But that was before the days of "keep your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire". (In the interest of "full-disclosure", I HATE DA, and love VERY light SA, so I'm always looking for ways to justify light SA).
 
The myth making continues. The 1911 isn't 'for' anyone. It is a 100 year+ old design of a non-hinged, single action, manual safety .45 ACP with 7-8 round capacity, weighing in at or around 3lb loaded.

That's what it is.

It isn't a 'soldier's gun', or an 'expert's gun', or 'not for beginners'. It just is.

People can take what it is and apply their opinions to it, which has been happening for a very long time. The Cult of Jeff Cooper has been lingering for quite some time, and is to my mind the main component for the 1911's status in the gun world.

People often say that a 'properly fitted', or 'properly tuned', or 'properly set up' 1911 with the right 'feed ramps' or 'tuned extractor' or 'ejector' or 'magazines' or or or or [whatever voodoo mojo] will allow the firearm to function 100%. I can buy a Glock 19 for half of what a decent 1911 costs and I have zero issues of 'tuning' in 99.9% of the units sold. What was once a problem with the extractor (and is now solved) is a quick, no tools part swap of a $7 part (that you can get for free in some circumstances). No gunsmithing, no tools, no hassle. And this same narrative of 'buy -> shoot' works with a ton of different makes and models: Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks, Walther PPQ, etc.

We don't have to talk about how to set those up to get them to run. We don't have to have discussions about what ammo they like to fire. We don't talk about their manual safety being accidentally engaged during the course of fire with a normal grip, we don't talk about what magazines to buy to ensure reliability. We just buy them, and shoot them.

The amount of projection that people are willing to place on the 1911, seeing them as a kind of cultural icon, as a holy grail, as an extension of their personality, is largely unique in the handgun world.

The risk of re-engaging the safety is a liability. If you're just going to be shooting at paper, who gives a crap. Alternately, why even bother.

All this said, one of my favorite target pistols is a 1911 Gold Cup. I get it. They are sleek and sexy, etc. But I don't make excuses for it, I don't call it 'a man's gun' or whatever, and I full recognize how much of a pain in the ass it is to own and operate as compared to any of my other handguns.
 
If Glocks, or any other gun, actually operated at 100%, you'd have a point. But, we're not discussing Glock's marketing campaign, we're talking about the demonstrated reliability of weapons.
 
Properly tuned, with the right mag, ejector, extractor... Etc etc...

That applies to every single pistol ever made.

A Glock made wrong will suck, not function well... Etc...

The only difference is that modern designs and manufacturing techniques make producing a consistent part easier. It means that there is less care needed in assembly. Modern design also benefits from refinement learned over time.

The 1911 design is made all over the world by many manufacturers, all with different levels of quality, and idea on how to make it, and the dimensions involved.

It is also being pushed out of its original design parameters being asked to shoot HP and a wide variety of ammo.

In its original form, ball ammo and original mag design, it was one of and likely still is one of the more reliably feeding designs available.


I would also argue that modern designs are probably overall better for most uses... So I am not bowing down before the alter of the 1911 here.

But... A tuned trigger, the weight and point-ability of the 1911, combine to make for a pistol that is easy to shoot well.

I am not saying it is a 100yo tactical wonder gun... Merely one that has some characteristics that are good for certain things.

And yes... It has been turned into a type of living myth through the years... All hail our Savior JMB...

As far as reengaging the safety... I think the OP has a technique problem mostly, one possibly confounded by an oversized "tactical" safety lever.
 
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The problem with the 1911 is that it is not a gun, it is a myth, and no gun can possibly "live" up to its own myth. But no gun can be turned out by a hundred makers, ranging from big factories to the guy with a workbench and a file, around the world, and have an "internet expert" compare all the products together as if they were equal.

A quality 1911 firing quality ammunition, is as reliable as any gun ever made or possibly could be made. Many pistols are made by one company, in one factory, under one set of QC standards. Yes, a Glock, designed by Glock, made by Glock, tested by Glock to Glock standards in the Glock factory, should be (and is) a fine gun. If you want to compare reliability, get a Colt M1911A1, and fire it with GI Ball with GI magazines. Will a Glock be more reliable? Maybe, but I doubt it.

FWIW, I consider a defense gun primarily a tool; "sweet and sexy" does not come to mind when firing a handgun.

Jim
 
I can buy a Glock 19 for half of what a decent 1911 costs and I have zero issues of 'tuning' in 99.9% of the units sold.

I think that's probably true. But for me, no other semi-auto FEELS as nice to shoot as a 1911, and that trumps everything else for me. If at some point I decide that neither of my 1911's are reliable enough for carry, I'll just exclusively carry my .44mag S&W69 ... it's been my only carry gun all summer anyway, and so I can live with that decision.
 
But that was before the days of "keep your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire".

No, it wasn't. That rule is as old as triggers. It is from the days of realizing that no matter how much training people get, SOME of them will still put their fingers on the trigger when they shouldn't, and a longer DA pull helps (but cannot eliminate) the risk this poses.
 
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In my opinion John Browning had the thumb safety on a 1911 designed the right way, small but easy enough to disengage.

I've shot with thumb over safety in competition because the paddles on the safeties were large and easy to bump into the engaged position while shooting.
I realized that shooting with my thumb over the safety actually opened up the back of my hand from the back strap of the gun and I did not have near the control of the gun as I did when I shot thumbs forward under the safety the way I was taught in the Army.

So I started fabricating my safeties like the one in the picture, it's very similar to the safety that John Browning used on a 1911, it's what I prefer on guns I carry for serious defense purposes.
After doing so I had many clients request the same on their carry guns.

With this type of safety I've never engage the safety to the locked position while using the gun except when I intended to do so.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
 
It's obvious what the solution to this problem of inadvertently engaging the safety of a 1911 is.
You large handed, fat fingered guys just need a larger gun.
Desert Eagle maybe?
Just a thought.
 
…And it is correct that different folks have differently shaped hands. My dad's palm makes a gap that won't depress a 1911 grip safety, so he has to lock his out or use one with a raised surface. My hand has no issue with it.

Much of this thread has described the Thumbs Forward grip as if it weren't compatible with the 1911 thumb safety, but NRA's Shooting Illustrated description of it is for a 1911. So it sounds like the OP's Thumb's Forward grip includes a constraint perhaps not originally included in the concept. That happens a lot. At the Shooter's Forum one of the posting members shot with Cooper and Jack Weaver and his son, among others, in the old South Western Combat Pistol League that led to the founding of IPSC and Gunsite. So this fellow posts a photo of his Weaver grip, and sure enough someone says it's all wrong. When the SWCPL fellow cites his credentials, the critic posts that he has IPSC training. OK. So we had a case of the upstart Young Turk presuming to tell the old masters they didn't know how to use their own system. Sort of humorous, but the bottom line was the critic had been taught a variant of the Weaver that his teacher liked better and decided that meant it must be The Right Way to do it. Hmmm. Remember the differences in hands thing?

The Gunsite Smithy long ago devised and recommended a lowered paddle on the thumb safety. That may prevent the OP's "thumbs forward" grip from causing it to be raised on his wide mag well Para Ordnance. No way to guess without seeing photos of his grip on that gun and how it may have pushed the safety up. I like and use the lowered safety, but, again, everything depends on your hands and, in this case, probably the gun frame.

Regarding choice of weapons, you try out different platforms and find what works for you. The English have the right idea with the shotgun try-stock, but with handguns the grip frame limits grip panel flexibility, so you have to try different guns. You might find you even like more than one. I trained on 1911's and know how to fit them up and like them partly as a shooter and partly as that guy in the neighborhood who also has a lathe in his garage and is a tinkerer who likes greasy metal. That doesn't mean the next guy should take that same path. It's just a fact about me, not an advertisement for the weapon system for all possible people in all possible circumstances. I will say I've twice run over 3,000 rounds of dirty shooting conventionally lubricated cast bullet loads through my beater SA 1911 over four consecutive days without cleaning and before Bullseye (first time) or Universal (second time) and lube residue built up enough to cause a failure of the slide to go the last eighth of an inch into battery. That's reliable enough for me. And no, I've never done anything to its feed ramp.

Having watched the safety argument play out on another board, I don't think there's any winning it one way or the other. Does a safety make a gun harder to discharge and require extra coordination on the part of the shooter to operate it? Yes. That's what it's there for. Safetyless gun designs make it easier for either the owner or someone who shouldn't have their hands on them to discharge them, be the latter a bad guy or a small child. Yeah, yeah, I know, you're not supposed to let either one of those get their hands on your weapon. Coulda', woulda', shoulda' probably plays through everyone's mind when they hear of a child getting hold of and discharging a weapon, yet it still happens. Libertarian David Bergland once observed that Utopia is a place where nothing ever goes wrong, pointing out afterward that "Eutopia is not one of the options". The conflict between ease of fast use and safety is a balancing act. This is true of safety mechanisms on the gun and those outside it, such as gun safes or external safety locks. Nobody is ever going to have The Right Answer until a gun can read the operator's mind.
 
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