Accidental discharge?

It was not an accident

"An accident or a mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity."

The above from Webster's dictionary... This event was not unforeseen or unplanned. He intentionally pulled the trigger....

You know the range layout, but from your description it sounds careless and dangerous.

My last employer had a zero tolerance policy. 1 Nd and you were on a plane home. Dont pass go dont collect... You were done

We had a guy (good, solid dude) had a ND on the training range while clearing a malfunction. No better place to have one. He was on the firing line... Muzzle downrange. Somehow he discharged a round INTO THE BACKSTOP. He was off the range packing his stuff that afternoon and on a plane stateside that evening

While i dont agree with that strict a policy, ND/AD/anytime you bang off a round when your not supposed to, its a serious event
 
Originally posted by raimius:
You've got to ask yourselves if you think he is ever going to be unsafe again. If he had the "Fear of God" put into him by this event, maybe you can keep him. If he is going to do things while distracted or isn't 110% on board with STRICT safety rules, you should probably let him go.
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That's my feeling of it as well. It's one thing to say "It was an accident" and be only marginally concerned about how fantastically a screw up that was (and it's not an accident if you pull the trigger to check if you have a loaded round or not). If he has the complete gravity of the situation to indicate how much he put everyone else's life in danger, then that's one thing. If he's like "whoops, that was an accident. sorry bout that guys" and moves on, then it's time to move on further...
 
I doubt any further action will be needed, a firearm unintentionally firing is enough to scare most normal people into a higher sense of awareness.
 
Targa Wrote;
a firearm unintentionally firing
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Therein lies the problem.

1. Firearms do not "unintentionally" fire. A firearm will only fire if someone has his booger hook on the bang switch.

2. The OP explained this:

45Gunner wrote;
The magazine was removed but instead of putting down the cell phone to rack the slide to visually check the chamber, he pointed the gun down range and pulled the trigger.
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He fired "intentionally" , down range, in the general direction of people checking targets. This was no "accident" It was a careless, but deliberate action. The "higher sense of awareness" should have prevented him from doing it at all.
 
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We are a four-man team that drills three times per week.
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There in lies your problem, you need two to four additional members to serve as SO's. It is not by accident that IDPA and USPSA require all matches to have trained Safety Officers at all drills or as they call it Stages.

While I do not condone your type of practice (too many chances for someone to really get hurt or killed). And many complain that IDPA has too many rules. Every month (or almost every month) you will see anywhere from 60 to 80 shooters per match all with holstered guns blasting away with 9,000 to 12,000 rounds of ammunition and everyone going home in one piece without any extra holes in them.

"Accidents will happen", that is a fact of life. And yes the other guy was the one that had the AD, but each of you need to take the responsibility for each others safety. So I blame all the members of your team for not paying attention to what was going on. Even at a public range, I am aware of what the guy next to me is doing at all times and will not hesitate to warn him if I see something that will cause harm to him or me.

You all need to review what you are doing and add an additional level of safety. give one of your members the responsibility as the Match director and add members as Safety Officers whose only job is watch for unsafe practices while the members guns are hot. I am sure if someone had yelled out "Finger" or "Phone" the AD would not have happened.

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim
 
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My first gut and knee-jerk reaction is exactly what Sevens said. After thinking on it longer I would then do what WW2 and JimmyR suggested.
If you all are a Team, there is no I in Teamwork. You must all take responsibility and ensure it doesn't happen again.
 
Way back in the mid 70’s, the Gunny was trying to raise a little money for an upcoming big match. He wanted to buy some Eley Tenex match ammo. If your score was lower than your norm, you got “fined”. Less than 6 points cost $0.10, 7s and 8s cost $0.05, if you had a miss on paper, you paid $0.50, off paper cost $1.00, extra holes were $0.25, and so forth.

We had finished for the night and were policing the brass in front of the line when the guy behind me picked up his Hi Standard pistol, pointed it at the floor and pulled to trigger release tension on the springs (as we were taught at that time). The round hit just behind and to the right of me. A piece of concrete flew up and nicked me just below my eye. We all learn lessons that night.

Everyone learned how many expletives the Gunny, a former Paris Island DI, could string together (his upcoming promotion to Master would have been sunk for sure if someone would have been holed under his watch).

Everyone learned to check for an empty chamber.

No one was kicked off the team, even the prankster who had stuffed an extra round in his fellow shooter’s mag.

An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?

Want is done to your guy should depend in part on his previous actions up to this point.
 
serf 'rett said:
...An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?...
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That helps illustrate the significance of the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Rule One of safe gun handling: All guns are always loaded. When that rule is properly internalized and lived by, one would not pull a trigger unless actually shooting at something he intends to shoot or until after he has personally clearer the gun and personally checked the chamber and magazine well to verify its condition. Nor would anyone pull a trigger unless the gun was pointed in a safe direction with no one anywhere near to being down range.

Of course the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Rules were designed for a hot range. And Gunsite teaches people things they should know for carrying a loaded gun in public or keeping a loaded gun for self defense. But the real world is a hot range, and IMO the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Four Rules are the "gold standard."


​



A while ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus (emphasis added):
Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".
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At Gunsite, training is on a hot range. For those who carry a gun in public, everyday life is a "hot range." It's a good idea to get used to that and learn to consistently conduct oneself accordingly.
 
...instead of putting down the cell phone...
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I don't know what it is that makes people's brains disconnect while they are talking on the phone.

An acquaintance of mine shot off one of his fingers at the range after a distraction involving a cell phone.

If I owned/operated a range, I would immediately eject and subsequently ban anyone who touched a phone while holding a gun or a gun while holding a phone.
 
An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?
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In my view, this is a horribly negligent discharge. Slam dunk.

Someone picked up a handgun and pulled the trigger, with no intention whatsoever of even attempting to look in the chamber.
 
45Gunner said:
Team Tactical Shooting is very much like flying in an aerobatic airshow in that one must develop a high level of trust in his/her fellow team members as they in you. You must be continually aware of where they are at all times as they must be aware of where you are. There must be an unimpeachable level of safety at all times while performing to the best ability of each individual and hence the team.

We are a four-man team that drills three times per week. Before each and every drill session we discuss and review the drills we are going to accomplish at the current range session, paying special attention to safety and to any maneuver(s) that requires extra special vigilance. At the end of each shooting session, we critique ourselves. However, if there is a situation that even comes close to being less than 100% safe, we stop that drill, make our guns safe, and then discuss that situation and come up with a course of action to insure that will never happen again.

Our range is a Private Club. There are no shooting booths as common to Public Ranges. For our intent and purpose, there are 4 unmarked lanes that are approximately 10 feet wide and 150 feet long. Benches are behind the shooters and are used as a place to put guns, ammo, range bags etc.

Targets, obstacles, and barriers are set out prior to each drill. Shooters begin each drill by drawing from the holster. Drills start with the command, “Shooters, load and make your gun ready.” When each shooter has accomplished that, he completes a press check, engages the safety, and places his gun into his holster raising his support hand to signal he is at the ready. At the end of a drill, all of us are downrange and the command is, “Shooters, unload your gun and make it safe.” We stop any walking/running motion, eject the magazine, run the slide open, remove a round if pertinent, do a visual inspection of the chamber, return the slide to battery, trip the trigger or engage the safety if applicable (depends upon which gun we are using), and then holster. The range then goes “Cold” and no one is allowed to take their gun out of the holster or handle any gun while any shooter is in front of the firing line.
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I don't think this guy meets your standards. If it was me, he'd be off the team or I'd find someone else to play with.
 
The excuse given by your offending team member gives all the information that is needed in my opinion. "It was an accident" is the rationalization of a guilty man. This was no accident. How you handle it up to you and your team. What happened here is a team failure, and unless changes are made in how you work together as a team it is only a matter of time before another failure occurs. You were lucky. Learn from it and move on. Good luck.
 
Have you looked at yourselves. Hot or cold, we don't go down range without notifying loudly. "I'M GOING DOWN".

He'll never do it again, and neither will you.
 
I don't know what it is that makes people's brains disconnect while they are talking on the phone.
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It actually takes considerable training to be able to talk and act at the same time.
For most folks, the brain does kind of disconnect when talking.
Same for talking and driving. :eek:
Try it for yourself to see.
Keep talking while drawing and shooting.
Most people have to stop talking to be able to do it.
 
Wow! I will burn that to brain,

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One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".
 
You know, it used to go without saying, but it doesn't any more.

The first rule of safety (gun safety, power tool safety, driving safety, operating heavy equipment safety, knife safety) is:

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND STOP DOING THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARY/RELATED TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING.​
All other safety rules are TOTALLY useless if you're distracted from what you're doing. If you are distracted and can't pay attention to what you're doing, how can you possibly pay attention to the safety rules?
 
Rule 5 - Don't be stupid.

I'd make him go through at least two hours of safety retraining before letting him shoot again. He would never do it again.
 
There not point in lots of firearms safety advice on this occasion. Forget about phones and other distractions. There is one simple rule when people are down range, you do not handle or touch a firearm in any way, its that simple.
 
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