Acceptable accuracy?

What is acceptable for self defense?

It's all a matter of the discipline you are looking at. A lot of people are comparing apples to oranges here.

For Bullseye: as mentioned above shooting at 25 - 50 yards 4-8"
Using techniques for Bullseye, a very good full size gun and ammo to match.

For Self Defense: if your shooting at 25-50 yard distances to a bad guy. You got a whole lot of explaining to do. Plus I would say these guys are not going to be carrying this gun.

From a concealed carry standpoint it's a whole different "ball game."You have a mixed bag of gun from concealed carry (small pocket pistols) to everything.

For this judging... what is good accuracy for self defense? What is good, is what is the scenario you'll most likely be using your concealed carry gun.

From a "low ready" - have the gun out and pointed at the ground in a 45 degree angle, then shoot.

So, for an average concealed carry gun (not a pocket pistol) 15-25 feet is the average range.
For a pocket pistol your looking at 5-12 feet - it's really meant for up close or a Back up Gun (BUG).

Now, what is good accuracy for a self defense shooting? Can you hit a plain paper plate (standard dinner plate) at these distances?

Now, from a self defense perspective.... add TIME into the mix. What I mean is now shoot your groups timed. Say 3 shots in 3 seconds. Make if faster or slower for your level of experience.

Once you reach this level.... we can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

What is good? Can you hit your target - where you want to shoot.
 
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Acceptable Accuracy :)



Being able to pattern "45 ACP" within 4 inches, at 10 feet away, on a "Burglar's" ass climbing in my window. :eek:

BurglarInWindow.jpg
 
For me, I'm satisfied with a 4" group at 25 meters/ 27 yards, free hand and standing with my primary hand.

If I remember correctly (it's been approximately 20 years), a DOD course I fired at the equivalent to a B-27 was as follows:

  • 90 meters prone, primary hand then off hand, 5 shots each no rest.
  • 75 meters kneeling behind a barricade and shooting over, primary hand then off, 5 shots each.
  • 45 meters through a doorway while standing, partially concealed, primary hand then off hand, 5 shots each.
  • 25 meters standing, primary hand then off hand, 10 shots each
  • 7 meters, primary hand then off hand, 10 shots each

Mag changes while shooting or moving to the target were required. 20 seconds at each stage. All you had to do was hit the black.
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I've been following it for a bit here, and was inclined to go with John in terms of the primary debate. I go out with friends of all walks a lot, and generally outshoot them on the pistol range. Again, not 10/10, but I do okay (although in a bit of a slump lately). Some of the folks that have deployed their weapons in "real-life" are some of the lousier shooters. One in particular maintains he was a just fine, middle of the pack at the federal bureau where he worked. So considering "professionals" are holding worse than me, who's happy to consistently hold 4-inches at 15-20 yards...

I guess where I was going with this is, how many folks really manage that, even if it's ideal? And what the heck am I doing wrong to be such a scrub offhand? :p
 
Yep, defensive pistol shooting is one thing (i.e., movement between stations, mag changes, varying ranges, timed shots, etc.), while target shooting and hunting are other beasts altogether.

As stated previously, with my semi-autos during defensive drills 4" at 25 meters or so is satisfactory to me; however, were I shooting my .44 mag revolvers for target or hunting I'd demand far more precision than that (more than double). I'd also be carefully picking my shots and not hurried about it at all.
 
Interesting discussion.

One thing to keep in mind is that, in my opinion, accuracy is related to the task. There is no one standard that can fit all. The standards for long range handgunning or hunting don't fit here, that is in defensive shooting and can actually get in the way.

We are speaking of defensive shooting which occurs under a variety of conditions with a variety of guns, so...

I believe the paper plate standard (or outstretched hand) is a useful one. From close up to out to 25 yards or so. I believe such shooting is "acceptable" for defensive handgunning.

Our personal standards may be higher. I for one try to do better but the OP asked for acceptable. I believe that is.

tipoc
 
My normal practice range is 10 yards (30 feet) and I'm happy when I leave with no holes outside 3" slow fire or outside 6" rapid fire.

4" at 50 yards would be one ragged hole at 10 yards shooting .45acp and I'm not that good. And I don't imagine I'll ever be, either.

In that regard, I like the "minute of pie plate" reference for acceptable combat accuracy.

(Now if I could only get the BG to hold a pie plate in front of his chest when the time comes....;))
 
(Now if I could only get the BG to hold a pie plate in front of his chest when the time comes....)
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The hard part for me is chasing them down and sticking a 3" "Shoot N See" to their chests.

tipoc
 
Pie plate

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CDH got it right earlier, IMO. "Minute of pie plate" is perfectly acceptable

Absolutely. With a compact, sub-compact, or snub, the pie plate at 20ft is acceptable. I can do that fast, with a g-26 (sub-compact)and I'm fine with that. Do not shoot so fast that you can't do it, and once you have that, improve your speed. Once your accuracy is acceptable at a SAFE speed, start your drawing and reloading drills. Your "g-19" would be considered compact (same sized XD's are called "service" sized). With my 92fs however, I like to hunt rabbit at 20 to 30 yards with ball ammo. I don't hit the rabbit EVERY time, but on a week long hike, I'm not going to starve to death.LOL
 
I’ll just add a little here - CDH comes close but for those that have been there you know your body does strange things on that first SD shooting episode such as, a feeling of weakness that you actually think your knees will buckle, tunnel vision, slow motion, loss of hearing etc. You will experience something – and it’s your training that will carry the day for you when your body/mind starts to experience these “out of body” type feelings. If you’re in a defensive position and the BG is maneuvering on your sick ass you might even feel sick to your stomach or actually puke **** up awaiting the moment of truth. Your second episode will go much better, as will the future ones, if you’re so unlucky to be put in those positions. For the majority of “average” civilians in a life or death shootout – it will probably start after the BG either shoots first or draws down on ya – now is when the ole adrenalin kicks in and takes your body and mind for a wild ride. For the average person who can’t shoot hundreds of rounds per week in training situations they think might be encountered – I’d say if they can keep all their shots within 10 inches at 25 feet they are good to go, as luck more than anything else is what’s going to pull them through. Once you return fire, the BG will now go into a survival mode and may run away if you keep missing, if not, then maybe a round or two will take him out if you can wiggle and wobble the barrel at the right moments. If you’ve ever seen some camera footage from stop & rob stores you’ve probably seen where the BG turns tail and highballs outta there when he realizes the clerk means to kill him. When you run out of bullets throw your weapon at him as you charge him and then take his weapon from him and keep shooting.:)
 
One of the things that I think of most is the difference between shooting as you describe and how a real-life SD shooting typically occurs.
For an armed civilian, I'm willing to bet that "9 inch target... 25 yards... service size gun... kneeling... prone... 3 seconds each" are situational elements that are never going to take place in a dark alley, or a deserted street at night, or the far edge of a parking lot.

"Target practice" is fine for people just learning about handling a pistol, but self-defense in the real world is all about "Fast draw... point shooting a short barreled pistol... using cover... 3 shots COM within one second... shoot until the threat disengages..."; those kinds of things and more variables that are possible but can't be determined beforehand.

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative here, but shooting to a certain degree of accuracy is moot if it's done at a target range.
What the OP might look into is to enroll in one of the defensive shooting schools offered in most cities. That's where many of the things that an armed civilian can be learned that will give him a better chance to survive an armed encounter.

"Target shooting" is fun and can be done until you can knock the balls off a flea at 100 yards. But what will save your life is an entirely different set of skills where "accuracy" is only one variable among many in a SD situation, and it's not even that important considering that the target is almost always way too close and plenty big at that range.
If you miss COM, it's not because your accuracy is off, it's because your shaking with fear, and that's something you can't overcome by shooting said balls off a flea at 100 yards.
Even police officers who train for such encounters often miss their targets at close range. Ever wonder why, if they can do so well at "the range"?

I'm just trying to answer the OP's question in a practical way that he may not even understand himself how his question applies in real-life.
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Of course, my viewpoint differs from yours. I lived long in the Third World and survived two civil wars. Only handguns were legal and I had to defend my property and business. And I did.
I just answered the question about acceptable accuracy and after having been a pistol instructor in a military elite combat unit during the cold war, the requirements to qualify is what I relayed in my first post, this is definitely not acceptable accuracy for a bullseye or ISSF shooter!!!
 
"...what are some goals for defensive shooting accuracy?"

The pistol: capable 4 inches or better at 25 yards.

The shooter: capable of coming as close to the pistol's capability as possible.
 
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