Acceptable accuracy?
- Thread starter Bill Siegle
- Start date
If you can hit an 8" target with EVERY shot at 70 yards, you're shooting groups sized no larger than 11.4MOA, about 43% larger than 4" at 50 yards.
Similarly, hitting a 6" target at 70 yards with EVERY shot is equivalent to no larger than 8.6MOA or about 7% larger than 4" groups at 50 yards.
On the other hand, if you're not hitting it EVERY shot then it's hard to say what the accuracy level is (as measured by on-paper group size). Let's say I routinely hit a 4" gong at 50 yards 8 out of 10 shots. That's not bad shooting--but the group size (including those two misses) could be 2 FEET for all I know. Because I have very little idea where the misses went.
While I would agree that it's useful to be able to hit small targets at significant distances (in terms of handgun range), I think that perhaps holding a gun & shooter to 8MOA accuracy (group size) at 50 yards just to be considered "acceptable" is excessively stringent.
That's essentially saying that in order to be "acceptable" one must be able to shoot a perfect Bianchi Cup score--with every shot an X ring hit.
Similarly, hitting a 6" target at 70 yards with EVERY shot is equivalent to no larger than 8.6MOA or about 7% larger than 4" groups at 50 yards.
On the other hand, if you're not hitting it EVERY shot then it's hard to say what the accuracy level is (as measured by on-paper group size). Let's say I routinely hit a 4" gong at 50 yards 8 out of 10 shots. That's not bad shooting--but the group size (including those two misses) could be 2 FEET for all I know. Because I have very little idea where the misses went.
While I would agree that it's useful to be able to hit small targets at significant distances (in terms of handgun range), I think that perhaps holding a gun & shooter to 8MOA accuracy (group size) at 50 yards just to be considered "acceptable" is excessively stringent.
That's essentially saying that in order to be "acceptable" one must be able to shoot a perfect Bianchi Cup score--with every shot an X ring hit.
groups
there are many "target" shooters who keep there shots in the X ring at 50 yds.I can/could keep them in the X ring at 50 ft and at 50 yds 4/5" group.
at 50 ft most will touch each other.I never shot more than 50 at one time.but did it about twice a week.in summer I did a lot of 25/50 yrd target.
my gun is a stock mod 10 S&W.my 45 an AMT longslide.my club had two leagues,and also the USRA matches.and I shot in summer matches.
there are many "target" shooters who keep there shots in the X ring at 50 yds.I can/could keep them in the X ring at 50 ft and at 50 yds 4/5" group.
at 50 ft most will touch each other.I never shot more than 50 at one time.but did it about twice a week.in summer I did a lot of 25/50 yrd target.
my gun is a stock mod 10 S&W.my 45 an AMT longslide.my club had two leagues,and also the USRA matches.and I shot in summer matches.
I think that improving one's accuracy is never merely an esoteric exercise. I think that far too many people are satisfied with poor to mediocre accuracy in the name of "practical accuracy" or "minute of BG".
On the other hand, I think that requiring all X-Ring hits on a Bianchi Cup target @ 50 yards just to qualify as "acceptable accuracy" is going too far the other direction. I think it's a good thing for everyone to try for but I don't think it's reasonable to say that someone's accuracy is unacceptable if they can't score that well.
On the other hand, I think that requiring all X-Ring hits on a Bianchi Cup target @ 50 yards just to qualify as "acceptable accuracy" is going too far the other direction. I think it's a good thing for everyone to try for but I don't think it's reasonable to say that someone's accuracy is unacceptable if they can't score that well.
Crankylove
New member
For the 3" 1911 that I carry, I am happy with 6" at 20', aiming for center mass.
Chief Engineer
New member
I can't think of many "defense" senarios that would take place at 50 yards with a handgun. I would hate to try to sell it to the Maine State Police.
John,
Re your post 17-
'Offhand' was never part of the equation. We are fighting here, not playing cards, and the only rule is to win by any means available. Yes we want the gun & ammo to possess that degree of mechanical accuracy. No, we can't make that shot every time, but we need to know that the hit will happen when we do it right.
The mentioned guns will indeed 'do it' and of course we are talking about 'ammo they like'. My stock Beretta Centurion liked Federal 9BPLE well enough to crowd 3" @ 50 regularly- and occasionally two. Two deputies with 92FS models convinced me this was not a fluke. A city cop acquaintance had an early 92 that shot superbly with 115 ball. Colt 1991A1's will do it with 230 HydraShok. I also have little trouble getting Glocks to shoot 2 inches at 25 (Most seem to like Ranger SXT.) or regularly break clay birds at 50. That's the standard 'precision handgun' target and I expect three-four out of five, repeatedly, before I know we're into 'precision shooter' country. I regularly get that, and see some go five for five. I haven't kept a tally of the percentages who could or couldn't since this exercise is a skill-builder, as opposed to a qualification. As I said in my earlier post-
The gun absolutely has to be zeroed and the operator also has to know where it shoots. This is something I do with all my own guns, and it falls into the "don't leave home without it" category, in my book...an 'absolute' of pistolcraft, if you will.
Personally, I practice 50 yard shots on head-sized targets, from the holster. This shooting is done two-hand, standing, unsupported. I expect myself to make the hit in about 3 seconds. I miss sometimes.
Guess I'll have to push myself a little harder.
Re your post 17-
'Offhand' was never part of the equation. We are fighting here, not playing cards, and the only rule is to win by any means available. Yes we want the gun & ammo to possess that degree of mechanical accuracy. No, we can't make that shot every time, but we need to know that the hit will happen when we do it right.
The mentioned guns will indeed 'do it' and of course we are talking about 'ammo they like'. My stock Beretta Centurion liked Federal 9BPLE well enough to crowd 3" @ 50 regularly- and occasionally two. Two deputies with 92FS models convinced me this was not a fluke. A city cop acquaintance had an early 92 that shot superbly with 115 ball. Colt 1991A1's will do it with 230 HydraShok. I also have little trouble getting Glocks to shoot 2 inches at 25 (Most seem to like Ranger SXT.) or regularly break clay birds at 50. That's the standard 'precision handgun' target and I expect three-four out of five, repeatedly, before I know we're into 'precision shooter' country. I regularly get that, and see some go five for five. I haven't kept a tally of the percentages who could or couldn't since this exercise is a skill-builder, as opposed to a qualification. As I said in my earlier post-
The gun absolutely has to be zeroed and the operator also has to know where it shoots. This is something I do with all my own guns, and it falls into the "don't leave home without it" category, in my book...an 'absolute' of pistolcraft, if you will.
Personally, I practice 50 yard shots on head-sized targets, from the holster. This shooting is done two-hand, standing, unsupported. I expect myself to make the hit in about 3 seconds. I miss sometimes.
Guess I'll have to push myself a little harder.
That is what I took the OPs post to be specifically about:
Bill Siegle said:
First of all, a standard clay target is 4.33" in diameter, about 8% larger than the accuracy goal you stated must be met to be acceptable.Sarge said:
Second, as pointed out in one of my earlier posts, even if we assume that the targets are actually 4" in diameter, the ability to hit a 4" target at 50 yards "three-four out of five" times and the ability to shoot 4" groups (achieve an accuracy of 4") at that distance are two very different things. You'd need to hit the target EVERY time at that distance to be shooting 4" groups. If we relax the meaning of "accuracy" to mean what you can hit ""three-four out of five" then my accuracy is incredible. I've got many 5 shot groups at 25 yards that are well under an inch--IF I get to throw out 1 or 2 of the shots.
In summary, I don't think it's reasonable to say that adequate "defensive shooting accuracy" is defined by the ability to hit a Bianchi Cup target X-Ring with every shot at 50 yards. That is not just adequate accuracy, it's exemplary. Furthermore, the scenario and results you describe indicates that even you are not able to attain "adequate accuracy".
I do agree that striving for such a goal is good, and further that most people are far too easily satisfied.
Father Time
New member
5 inch groups at 25 yards for a full size handgun (I usualy do better
) but, if I'm shooting something more difficult (a DAO snubbie revolver for example) I can be forgiving.
) but, if I'm shooting something more difficult (a DAO snubbie revolver for example) I can be forgiving.While I try to be the best I can by practicing accuracy as much as speed, I would expect a handgunner to hit at least a standard 9" paperplate at 25 yards with a service sized gun, unsupported, kneeling, and prone, 10 rounds each. Time limit of 3 seconds per round.
If you want to be good, you will have to do better. Do some competitive shooting and find out if you will be better than average.
If you want to be good, you will have to do better. Do some competitive shooting and find out if you will be better than average.
One of the things that I think of most is the difference between shooting as you describe and how a real-life SD shooting typically occurs.
For an armed civilian, I'm willing to bet that "9 inch target... 25 yards... service size gun... kneeling... prone... 3 seconds each" are situational elements that are never going to take place in a dark alley, or a deserted street at night, or the far edge of a parking lot.
"Target practice" is fine for people just learning about handling a pistol, but self-defense in the real world is all about "Fast draw... point shooting a short barreled pistol... using cover... 3 shots COM within one second... shoot until the threat disengages..."; those kinds of things and more variables that are possible but can't be determined beforehand.
I'm truly not trying to be argumentative here, but shooting to a certain degree of accuracy is moot if it's done at a target range.
What the OP might look into is to enroll in one of the defensive shooting schools offered in most cities. That's where many of the things that an armed civilian can be learned that will give him a better chance to survive an armed encounter.
"Target shooting" is fun and can be done until you can knock the balls off a flea at 100 yards. But what will save your life is an entirely different set of skills where "accuracy" is only one variable among many in a SD situation, and it's not even that important considering that the target is almost always way too close and plenty big at that range.
If you miss COM, it's not because your accuracy is off, it's because your shaking with fear, and that's something you can't overcome by shooting said balls off a flea at 100 yards.
Even police officers who train for such encounters often miss their targets at close range. Ever wonder why, if they can do so well at "the range"?
I'm just trying to answer the OP's question in a practical way that he may not even understand himself how his question applies in real-life.
John,
You are splitting hairs and arguing semantics.
The gun & ammo should hold the standard I described for the reasons I stated.
Knowing that the combination of gun/ammo/sight regulation will do it every time is vital to our ability apply these skills.
The shooter should strive to shoot up to the limits of the gun- under adverse conditions and time limits.
You seem to want to argue about whether it can be done day in and day out without tossing an occasional flier (0.33 inches of clay bird) which is ridiculous.
Dead horse. I'm not beating it anymore.
You are splitting hairs and arguing semantics.
The gun & ammo should hold the standard I described for the reasons I stated.
Knowing that the combination of gun/ammo/sight regulation will do it every time is vital to our ability apply these skills.
The shooter should strive to shoot up to the limits of the gun- under adverse conditions and time limits.
You seem to want to argue about whether it can be done day in and day out without tossing an occasional flier (0.33 inches of clay bird) which is ridiculous.
Dead horse. I'm not beating it anymore.
Defensive shooting, uh. Not target.
I read somewhere the average "real" fight takes place inside of 20' (7' is what I hear most often). So what is practicing at anything other than these distances going to do me except help me empty my mag before the REAL fight begins.
I'm also going to practice one handed and off-hand at these distances too (7 to 20'). In a real (defensive) situation, I might not have time to get a nice stance and two handed grip off.
I read somewhere the average "real" fight takes place inside of 20' (7' is what I hear most often). So what is practicing at anything other than these distances going to do me except help me empty my mag before the REAL fight begins.
I'm also going to practice one handed and off-hand at these distances too (7 to 20'). In a real (defensive) situation, I might not have time to get a nice stance and two handed grip off.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Actually Sarge, it isn't. The 0.33" on the clay bird isn't just 8% as John mention (except as one axis only) but over 17% since you are dealing with the area of a circle. That means you actually add over 2 square inches of target area to the disk when you go from 4" to 4.33" in diameter.
It is much like when people argue that there is so little difference in size between 9mm and .45 acp when in reality the .45 acp has 60% more area.
Semantic? Maybe, but you stated the original semantic claim of a specific amount. You were making a semantic point that had an error in it (double what John thought it was) that favored your position.
Don't be upset John caught the discrepancy. Be flattered that he was paying that much attention to what you were saying.
So acceptable accuracy is being able to sometimes put shots on a 4.33" target at 50 yards?
Sarge,
Your initial post consisted entirely of: "Four inches at 50 yards."
Any shooter would interpret that to mean 4" groups at 50 yards (8MOA). Given that the initial post was about a shooter asking about "defensive shooting accuracy" and providing his shooting results, it's reasonable to assume that your reply was in the context of offhand shooting.
In other words, your initial statement indicated that a shooter should be able to hit the X-Ring of a Bianchi Cup target every time at 50 yards from an unsupported position in order to qualify as having "acceptable defensive shooting accuracy".
Your second post reinforces that idea by saying that off-the-shelf-guns are capable of that accuracy, that you can do it and you teach others to do it on a regular basis.
However, your revised post (#28) states something else entirely. Now you're saying the 8MOA only applies strictly to the potential accuracy of the gun/ammo combination's capability and relaxed the "Four inches at 50 yards" to mean that one must hit a target that's about but maybe a little larger than 4" three or four times out of five shots at 50 yards. As I pointed out, if a shooter is allowed to throw out 1 or 2 shots from a five shot group, that will usually reduce the group size considerably. I'd say it's reasonable to expect the group size to fall by a factor of 2 or 3.
In other words, the ability to hit a clay bird at 50 yards three or four times out of five shots is roughly equivalent to shooting groups that are 17.5 MOA to 26 MOA. That's like shooting 5 shot groups at 25 yards that are 4.3" to 6.5" or 50 yard groups that are 8.7" to 13".
That would be the equivalent of being able to consistently hold the 10 ring of a Bianchi cup target at about 30 yards as opposed to being able to consistently hold the X-ring at 50 yards.
That's still a fairly stringent requirement, but it's obviously FAR less demanding.
Your initial post consisted entirely of: "Four inches at 50 yards."
Any shooter would interpret that to mean 4" groups at 50 yards (8MOA). Given that the initial post was about a shooter asking about "defensive shooting accuracy" and providing his shooting results, it's reasonable to assume that your reply was in the context of offhand shooting.
In other words, your initial statement indicated that a shooter should be able to hit the X-Ring of a Bianchi Cup target every time at 50 yards from an unsupported position in order to qualify as having "acceptable defensive shooting accuracy".
Your second post reinforces that idea by saying that off-the-shelf-guns are capable of that accuracy, that you can do it and you teach others to do it on a regular basis.
However, your revised post (#28) states something else entirely. Now you're saying the 8MOA only applies strictly to the potential accuracy of the gun/ammo combination's capability and relaxed the "Four inches at 50 yards" to mean that one must hit a target that's about but maybe a little larger than 4" three or four times out of five shots at 50 yards. As I pointed out, if a shooter is allowed to throw out 1 or 2 shots from a five shot group, that will usually reduce the group size considerably. I'd say it's reasonable to expect the group size to fall by a factor of 2 or 3.
In other words, the ability to hit a clay bird at 50 yards three or four times out of five shots is roughly equivalent to shooting groups that are 17.5 MOA to 26 MOA. That's like shooting 5 shot groups at 25 yards that are 4.3" to 6.5" or 50 yard groups that are 8.7" to 13".
That would be the equivalent of being able to consistently hold the 10 ring of a Bianchi cup target at about 30 yards as opposed to being able to consistently hold the X-ring at 50 yards.
That's still a fairly stringent requirement, but it's obviously FAR less demanding.
chucksolo69
Moderator
I am of the opinion that a decent shooter should be able to keep his shots, with a fixed sight pistol, in the black and bull ring of an NRA 25' slow fire pistol target at 25 yards; off hand. Anything worse than that and the shooter really needs to learn how to shoot.
David Armstrong
Moderator
CDH got it right earlier, IMO. "Minute of pie plate" is perfectly acceptable for self-defense use of the handgun. I tend to combine that with a time factor. Up close, can you hit the plate at speed? Very few SD situations require a high level of accuracy, so the ability to hit the pie plate in whatever you consider a reasonable time frame is a good test of your skill. That might mean target focus shooting at 5 yeards, flash sight picture at 10 yards, good sight alignment at 20 yards, and so on. If you can put a good group on the plate at speed you know you cdan shoot a little faster, if the groups start going off the plate you need to slow down and focus on the basics.
I say you should be able to put the shot's in the 8s on a B27 Silhouette, rapid or slow fire up to 15 yards.
50 Yard shooting to me is just good fun, but it's so easy to miss the whole B27 Silhouette target with my little 1 7/8", but I have gotten lucky and got 4 out of 5 in the CM area on a good day, after warming up a hundred or two rounds at between 7-25 yards.
Sarge, if you ever come out to Vegas you'll have to show your 4" at 50, and I've got some nice PC revolvers that can probably do 2" groups at 50 Yards indoors.
So my answer is 6-8" at 15 yards (45 Feet) should be good free hand. In Nevada all you need to do is a 10" by 17" group in the #8 at 7 Yards to get a CCW.
http://www.youtube.com/v/WxwZqUnWdho&hl=en&fs=1
50 Yard shooting to me is just good fun, but it's so easy to miss the whole B27 Silhouette target with my little 1 7/8", but I have gotten lucky and got 4 out of 5 in the CM area on a good day, after warming up a hundred or two rounds at between 7-25 yards.
Sarge, if you ever come out to Vegas you'll have to show your 4" at 50, and I've got some nice PC revolvers that can probably do 2" groups at 50 Yards indoors.
So my answer is 6-8" at 15 yards (45 Feet) should be good free hand. In Nevada all you need to do is a 10" by 17" group in the #8 at 7 Yards to get a CCW.
http://www.youtube.com/v/WxwZqUnWdho&hl=en&fs=1
