Acceptable accuracy?

B

Bill Siegle

New member
I am sure this topic comes up time to time but I figured I would ask anyway.....what are some goals for defensive shooting accuracy? I have seen the experts talk about getting good groups at the range but I am looking for some opinions on what others believe is acceptable. I'd also like to hear what some LEOs and military requirements are. Please remember I am asking for opinions so if someone has differnet views than you keep it civil :) For me I can hit about a 4-6in circle inside of 50ft with most of my guns. This is with G19 size handguns or better. The small pocket guns,I am waiting till they get a little closer if I can :D
 
SD

The tighter the group, the better. For SD practice, I try to keep all shots in at least a palm sized group when firing rapidly at seven yards. At three yards, I'm trying for one ragged hole.
Pete
 
Consistently hitting a pie plate at seven yards is plenty accuracy, but I think hitting a pie plate at seven feet is all you really need when push comes to shove.

The trick, however, is to do so while only point shooting with a short-barreled pistol because of time limitations in real life, and to do so while being distracted by the sudden realization that you might die within seconds, and to do so while knowing that what you do in the next fraction of a second may cause the saving or loss of the life of a loved one, and make the shot while trying to see straight with your mind awash in adrenlin.
And knowing, that whatever the outcome, your life is never going to be the same as it was before the incident. :eek:

But yea, hit a pie plate at seven feet with perfect consistency and you're good to go.
Some people might say that a person would be lucky to just not fumble the pistol while under the stress of the above conditions, so hitting a pie plate would be quite stellar. :D
 
Yea, well Military and Police, those who are expected to cope with that kind of problem, train thru constant repitition and a rather controlled environment until it is more or less reflexive rather than something to contemplate. Draw and fire, draw and fire, presumably, rather than just marksmanship slow target practices.
 
My standards are simple. A human shaped target, and all bullets aimed at the COM hit somewhere in COM all bullets aimed at the head hit the head. No bullets that miss the human shape. I'm no expert marksman, but I am confident in my ability to stop a BG.
 
Once you have accuracy down and it sounds like you do then its time to start playing little games.
With an auto, one round in the gun and one in another mag and go for accuracy and reloads.
Go for two round accuracy. With the gun pointed down range but off target and your eyes off target, bring the gun up and your eyes on and fire two rounds as fast as you safely can. The important thing to do is make sure your sights are on for each round. This does not mean to blaze away, don’t fire unless you’re on target. When I work with new shooters and have them do this, when starting it can take up to seconds between shots, but with experience most can keep 4 inch groups with less than 2 seconds for each set. I also use horns to start them, this adds pressure and distractions. With time this will improve your ability to pick up your sights quickly.
Change hands and strong eye.
If your talking about accuracy needed to carry, then anything under 5 inches out to 7 yards is good enough. 4 inches at 50 yards is a wonderful thing but if you cant do it quickly and under pressure with a carry weapon than it doesn’t mean a thing.
 
Sarge said:
Four inches at 50 yards.
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WESHOOT2 said:
I'm with Sarge......
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I guess I'm at a loss.

I'm sure that you both realize that kind of accuracy is not at all a given from an off-the-shelf handgun, even those generally considered to provide exemplary accuracy and even with the load it likes best.

I'm also sure that you both know that most shooters find it difficult to hold 8MOA with a handgun under ideal circumstances, let alone in a situation that could be properly defined as a "defensive shooting" scenario.

So what am I missing? Is this a case of using 'yards' when 'feet' were intended?
 
disservice

"...anything under 5 inches out to seven yards is good enough..." really isn't; it might be "good enough", but I am unwilling to bet my life on that.

One does not get to decide one's engagement distance; it is determined for you.
 
John,

The 'four inches' represents an antagonist's head at 50 yards, if that's all he's offering to shoot at. It also represents about an inch either side of the upper CNS from navel to noggin, where a single hit is most likely to produce an immediate effect.

On the matter of service pistol (mechanical) accuracy- any number of service pistols can hold that degree, or better. I can, and have built 1911's that will do it and run on indefinitely with good ammo. Beretta 92's will do it. Glocks will do it. You have to absolutely, positively know that your gun is zeroed with the ammo you are carrying in it. You have to know that the ammo is both effective and accurate.

The problem is that folks have been reading too much Dick Metcalf, and believing that fertilizer about "4.5 inches at 25 yards" being acceptable. As long as people settle for that level of accuracy from themselves, the gun and the ammo, they will never develop the kind of accuracy that comes as second nature under stress. If you can do it under stress, when it matters, you better change things/develop skill until you can.

It is critical to eliminate as many variables as possible because peripheral hits absolutely will not stop a determined individual. See my post in the FBI-Miami thread for further. Sure, anybody can miss and I do on a regular basis. I also know that those misses are my error, period. I also know that if I concentrate and do it right, I can make those hits.

I personally find that comforting enough to make it worth the 'trouble' to attain the accuracy level described. I don't buy that line that 'most people' can't do it, either. I teach people to do it on a regular basis, and a surprising number of people can- or get so close that I sure don[t want to stick my head yp with them shooting at me, 50 yards distant.
 
(Metcalf defines "making a living")

Told you to pay attention :D


FWIW, 4" @ 50 yds is my minimum standard. Just in case.....
 
I've seen it said (it talking about snubbies) that they should be good for 2 inches per 10 years, thats 2 in at 10, 4 at 20, 6 at 30. I found that to be a pretty good standard.

BUT

I firmly believe that any dicent pistol is capable of better then that, we the shooter are the limiting factor.

There is nothing that tightens up a group, pistol, rifle, or what ever then rounds down range. Good quality practice works every time.

I'm fair with my 642, but then I shoot a min of 200 rounds a week through it. And you cant slack off. The longer between practice sessions, the wider the group. And dont stop, if you get where you can shoot 4 inch groups consistantly at 25 yards, the work on getting consistant 2 inch groups.

You get out of a pistol (or rifle) just how much you put into it, it takes hard work. Your shooting is only limited by how much hard work you want to put into it.

A lot of people will disagree, but I believe if one will shoot bullseye with his carry gun, your groups are gonna shrink, your defensive shooting is gonna improve.
 
not me

I suggest folks begin and end practice sessions with group-shooting at 25 yd minimum.

Training one's mind to acknowledge appropriate sight focus and trigger control from those 'long' shots enhances one's abilities at shorter distances.

"Hard work"; brother is THAT a mouthful.


I talk the talk, but my actual performances leave much desired. Yet I'm still here to discuss it. Whew....here's to sincerely hoping it never matters.
For me....
 
On the matter of service pistol (mechanical) accuracy- any number of service pistols can hold that degree, or better. I can, and have built 1911's that will do it and run on indefinitely with good ammo. Beretta 92's will do it. Glocks will do it.
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Based on my experience with Beretta 92s & Glocks I would say that some of them CAN do it under ideal circumstances with ammo they like. I've managed sub 8MOA accuracy with a 92 offhand @25yds and gotten down to right AT 8MOA with a G17 from a rest @25yds. But I wouldn't bet my money that a typical off-the-shelf 92 or Glock (i.e. just go grab one and pay for it) would hold 4" groups at 50 yards.

I certainly believe it's possible to build guns that will do it, but those don't qualify as "off-the-shelf".
I teach people to do it on a regular basis...
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Are you saying that a significant percentage of your students graduate with the ability to shoot 4" groups at 50 yards offhand (unsupported) with a service pistol? (If so, what percentage?)

Or are you saying that a person should be able to hit a 4" target at 50 yards X times out of Y shots? For example, 2 shots out of 10 or 7 shots out of 15.
 
what I can demonstrate

At my outdoor club there is one range with steel 'gong' plates set at distances ranging from 70 out to over 150 yds.

I can regularly ring the 70 yd gong with many of my centerfire handguns ('cause I haven't tried it with all of them. Yet).
 
Dang kraigwy don't give all the info away . Make them work for it. Just like one must do the work at the range to become skilled at long range hand gun shooting.
 
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