A very specific caliber debate: Larger or smaller caliber in same size gun?

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Playboypenguin

Moderator
Okay, I touched on this subject in another post but it became obvious that a more specific thread regarding caliber changes in the same size gun could be interesting.

My situation is that, regardless of the season, I wear the same type clothes at work year round. Because of this I do not have the option of moving up to a larger gun during the winter months. I have to have something that conceals easily and comfortably. Up until now I have been carrying my Kahr PM9 and it really fits the bill.

Now that cooler weather is here I start thinking about penetration since people coming in tend to be wearing coats and sweaters. Since, as I said before, I cannot move to a larger gun I have to make the choice between keeping 7 rounds of 9mm or moving up to a .40s&w round in the same gun...sacrificing the additional round I get with the 9mm version.

I personally made the decision to give up the extra round and go with the round that performed better in penetration test a friend and I did with denim and other coat materials. I picked up the Kahr PM40 from Cocktailer today. Now I just need to decide whether or not to keep the PM9 or sell it since I have the PM40.

What choice would you make if faced with the same options?

My dress style at work.

IMG_9683.jpg
 
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For what you wearing, you should easily be able to conceal a full size pistol without to much, if any trouble.

I wear similar in the summer, an untucked oxford shirt over a tee shirt, and I carry a P226 with a double reload.

At most, you might need to go to a fuller cut shirt, but even the one you have one is very doable.
 
David, I do like those LDAs! Got 3 myself . . .

But to respond to the OP, I find that the 9 is a very adequate SD round. If you are worried about penetration year round, then shift over to .357 Sig (you should be able to pick up a drop-in barrel for your gun, nothing else needs to be changed). That round is preferred by agencies that want good penetration that won't over-penetrate, and has some very nice ballistics.

Jim D
 
This is my opinion. I'm not going to defend it rigorously because I'm not claiming it's fact.

Frankly, I'm leery of the really small polymer guns in relatively heavy calibers like .40S&W. I think that the PM9 is right on the hairy edge of being too small and too light for a really reliable 9mm but I might be able to convince myself via a lot of work at the range to use one for self-defense.

However, I, personally wouldn't choose the PM40 for a self-defense/carry gun. I'm sure that folks get them to work at the range under ideal conditions but I worry what will happen when shooting them under a lot of stress with a less than perfect hold on that little tiny plastic gripframe and perhaps shooting from an unorthodox position.

I've had this concern for some time but it really started to gel after reading an article in Shotgun News by Frank James (this link contains a synopsis http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12569123&postcount=3) and was reinforced by some experiences, primarily an incident awhile back where I experienced some malfunctions in an otherwise 100% reliable pistol while firing weak-handed under the stress of the timer.
 
Im with ya on the switch too .40,but i dont see the 9mm being bad at penetration.Im the type who buys .45+p because normal loads dont penetrate enough.
All this is in my head,and i know that.
I also like the 10mm full power loads better than .45+p due to even better penetration.
I always imagined when or if i ever get attacked it will be by a guy 6'8" 350 lbs in a parka with 3 sweatshirts all layered on.But in reality it will be a 5'8" 130 crackhead with a t-shirt and jeans.

Id say hold onto the 9mm for a while and think and research what my be a good addition to your ccw rotation.Mabey a .45 for summer days? they make them pretty small these days,many the size of the CW45.

I want a PPS in 9mm,but for the main reasons is i want it for ccw and range duty.A .40 would be the better ccw choice,but the 9mm is more range friendly.I feel costs of ammo dictate that i would buy the 9mm since i have larger .45's if thats what i need that day.
 
Playboypenguin
I have to have something that conceals easily and comfortably.
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I'm 57, 5'10", and 185 pounds. Since I have carried a full sized 1911 under a t-shirt for decades, I can not understand your conclusion that you can not carry a larger gun wearing more clothes.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference. What is the definition of easily and comfortably?

Regardless of that; you are really asking about:
Now I just need to decide whether or not to keep the PM9 or sell it since I have the PM40.

What choice would you make if faced with the same options?
Click to expand...

If I did not have to sell a gun, I would not. Accumulate as many as possible to keep your options open.
 
I'm 57, 5'10", and 185 pounds. Since I have carried a full sized 1911 under a t-shirt for decades, I can not understand your conclusion that you can not carry a larger gun wearing more clothes.
Click to expand...
I wear clothes that fit...and I actually move while carrying. :)
 
I'm 53, 5'9" and 150 lbs. I wear clothes that fit. Maybe not skin tight, but not baggy/saggy/draggies either.

I can conceal my Kahr P45 with summer clothes (e.g. t-shirt or Hawaiian shirt) and a 1911 or an N-frame S&W with "winter" clothes which is any long sleeve shirt, or a swetshirt/sweater/etc..

I am currently wearing a .45 LC 4" S&W M25. Indoors, with an untucked, thin long sleeve Dallas Cowboys t-shirt.

Just did some twistin' and a-turnin' in front of the mirror to make sure it wasn't showing. :)

I'm not as photogenic as you :)....or maybe a bit less comfortable posting pics on the 'net...so I won't back it up. But if you can't believe it, pm me with an email addy, I can send pics.
 
I wear clothes that fit...and I actually move while carrying.
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I do too, and I work physically, mostly outdoors, and I move a lot more than most people half my age do.

99% of the time, the only reason someone cant carry and conceal a full size pistol, is because they wont. Its not because they cant. They just dont want to make the effort. I think these days, for many, carrying a gun seems to be more of a fashion accessory and status symbol. What goes with what seems to be more important than why you have it in the first place.

A full size gun, when worn properly, can easily be hidden from sight, even without a shirt, if you position your body properly. I've answered the door just like this, and the person was never the wiser.

ry%3D400


Not a great pic, but theres that same 1911 and a double reload under there on my belt, as well as a Leatherman, a Lock Level, and a 25' tape. Thats just a normal, size large oxford shirt, that actually looks almost "fitted" when buttoned and tucked in. Its not some oversize thing, and hangs close to my side. The light spot on my tee shirt is the only dry spot on me at the moment there, and the main reason I use a kydex holster. Thats about 9 in the morning on a normal summer day, and Im already soaking wet. What was that about "actually moving"? :)

ry%3D400



I'm not big, or as beefed up as I once was, I'm 54, 5'6", 170 pounds with a 34" waist and wear a size large shirt. These days, I carry a P229 IWB with a double reload on my belt, a Seecamp in a Smart Carry, and depending on where we're working, time of year and what jacket or outerwear I'm wearing, sometimes a P230 or 642. I do it on a daily basis too, and interact with all sorts of people in all sorts of places. If I'm made, its my job, and theres often a very good chance I might get arrested, even though I have a permit.

So tell me again, just how hard is it really?
 
I had the option of choosing either a Springer XD9SC or XD40SC for carry. I chose the 9 for two reasons:

1. Round count
2. More accurate in my hand
 
That last pic just shows my point. That cover shirt is way too big for you. Look at how the sleeves are ruffled up because they are way too long. If the sleeves are too long then most likely the shoulders are way too wide as well. Which is evident by the fact the pockets are hitting you on your lower ribcage.

You also say "make the effort" when referring to carrying a full sized gun. If it was as easy and comfortable as a small gun you would not be needing to make any effort. :)
 
If you look close, the shirt is basically sopping wet from just below the pockets and up (if you look close, you can see the sweat line), the front pockets have stuff in them and a radio mic is hanging off one, weighing them down. The sleeves are just as wet, thats why they are hanging down too. I'd just got done cutting about 300 feet of line through some heavy brush on a hot, humid morning. Like I said before, the shirt when tucked in, actually looks a lot different, and almost like a fitted shirt, so its not at all big. When untucked and dry, it looks more like yours, except its not a fitted dress shirt, and not as tight in places you dont want it tight, well, if your wearing a gun anyway.

Its really no effort, other than actually doing it. I know, I've done it every day for about 30 years now, so I know it can be done, and done easily. With the clothes you wear, or at least the ones your wearing in the pic, its no problem at all, especially if you lighten up on the fitting. Just a minor change as that can make a big difference.

If your comfortable with a smaller gun, why not just go with a Smart Carry? You can then wear the tighter, fitted shirts, and tuck them in. Wear your pants a tad fuller cut, and the gun doesnt have to even be all that small.

Like I said, its all about wanting to do it. "Cant" is such a negative, whiny word, dont you think? ;) :D
 
Penguin, I'm currently wearing very similar attire to you, though my shirt may not taper as much. The big difference between your shirt and mine is that mine is much darker and has a more pronounced pattern. This breaks up any printing allowing me to very comfortably carry an n-frame on me.

I'm not saying you should carry a larger gun, just that it is an option.
 
I would just make sure that the ammo I'm using is right for the job. Most of the summer I use JHP (almost any brand). In the winter I go with either powerball or Federal EFMJ. This way I stay with the gun that I am use to and don't have to give up rounds.
 
I don't really see the 9mm giving up that much to the .40 so I'd say stay with the nine and if anything switch to some deeper-penetrating ammo in the winter.
 
i say go ultra-compact with a kel tec p32.

but to your original question, i say keep the 9mm, if you dont need to get rid of it why would you?

what if you drop the .40 and need to get it fixed, well you still got the 9mm.
 
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