A scenario. It happened to me today.

As an ex-city boy, I have seen and dealt with a lot of crazy people. If the guy is in the store acting nuts, but not threating or hurting anyone, legally you can't even pepper spray him. You tell him to leave, call the cops and take a defensive posture until he is gone. If he is saying threatening things I would still take a defensive posture, unless he approaches you or your family. Most of these guys are verbally ranting. I have seen homeless guys on street corners, scream and yell some foul and scary stuff at people as they walk by, but they never leave the spot they are standing on, they will never get in anyone face or grab them. If They do they are a threat, if they don't they are just ranting. Pepper spraying a crazy guy is BAD NEWS, whatever drug, booze or mental illness is making them crazy, might also lessen the effect of pepper spray, and make him more angry/violent. I would only use it as a last resort. There is a video on the internet of a bunch of cops pepper spraying a Wacko with no effect to the guy. Here is a link, but be careful of the spyware.

http://www.m90.org/index.php?id=9297
 
I have been carrying a gun since the first of this year.....a gun and a spare magazine. Then I picked up a decent pocketknife more for utility reasons....you know, be prepared. Then I was cussing one night when I needed a flashlight and couldnt find one - yep, got a SureFire in my pocket 24/7 now.

Then it was a month ago I read a similiar thread and thought, man some pepper spray could come in handy when lethal force isnt justified.....theres the be prepared theory kicking in again. I have some Fox Labs in my pocket.

This adds up to alot of crap to carry, but if I ever need it I will be glad I did.

Im an able bodied male subject so I would have reached in the pocket, slid the trigger on my spray over to "oh my eyes burn" mode and prepared for a spray down. Had I seen a weapon it would have been a different story. Hopefully I would have acted it out just like I say it now......you never know.



NOTE: Im not an uber-tactical mall ninja here. I wear pants with cargo pockets 99% of the time, therefore all this stuff is setting in my pocket ready if need be, Im not wearing a vest or other CCW nerd clothes.
 
QUOTE = rezmedic54
"
Here in Az you can only shoot for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only you are in fear for your life or grevous body harm.
"

You can also shoot to save someone else from death or severe bodily harm.
The image below is from "Arizona Gun Owner's Guide" by Alan Korwin.
If you live in Arizona you should own this book.
http://www.gunlaws.com/agog.htm

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Disparity of Force

Usually you better be able to prove some disparity of force between you and an "unarmed" attacker if you are going to employ lethal force. In this case you may have had it...

The BG in this case was, as everyone viewing him appeared to believe, insane. An unarmed person who is mentally distrubed is FAR more dangerous than an unarmed person in their right mind. Given that fact I would have drawn and if he approached fired. He is obivously insane, violent, and deliberately closing on an armed individual. You would have no choice at that point I believe.
 
I agree with Springmom

I agree with Springmom, I would draw my weapon and hold it by my legs/side. If the guy charges he can cover 10-15 ft in under a second. Who knows, he may have drawn a knife during that time and stabbed you before you could have uncovered your weapon (assuming it is concealed), drawn, got a GOOD beat on him (remember, your in public with innocent people around, don't go rambo), and put a round or more into him to halt his attack. A gun at your side is available much faster. And if he was mentally unstable, and he gets more hostile, it's his fault. Just like what happened with the air marshall's in Miami, you can't assume in an instant whether the guy is insane and harmless or insane and lethal. HE is placing YOU in danger, you must value your own life and the lives of others over his life.

"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six".

Chase
 
Thug vs Leo is different than Thug vs. civilian

That just doesn't make sense. I've been in the Texas Highway Patrol for several years and have learned, that in most situations, you can talk your way out of it without having to use or threaten to use physical force. Not in every situation, but most. You still have to been on your toes and ready to react.
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This statement is a little self-righteous and deprecating to Springmom. Just like I dont run yellow lights when I see a patrol car at an intersection, I am sure the loudmouth in the store would not have been souch a cocky cop hating lout had the said trooper been in there in uniform with gun on hip.

I think we can all be agreed that a common criminal will behave and react differently to a uniformed LEO with all weapons at ready that they would with meek soccer mom and nerdy joe schmo. The fact that an LEO can de-escalate a situation has little merit with civilians who cannot even expose our weapons in most places.

Being a victim too many times trying to be a hero, I would just have been ready to go for my gun, but I would not have pulled it out unless he was bearing a weapon. I would have just acted like most cowardly sheep and broke eye contact and moved my family away from the threat. If he came after me with fist and feet and started pummeling me, I would have backed into a defensive fetal position and let him beat me harshly and would not have fought back at all and then if he did not stop and I knew he wanted to kill me, only then would I have shot him. This is the only action that would be seen as appropriate in the eyes of our society and in our courts. This is exactly what I would do nowadays.

What I would have done many years ago being much younger and much more proud and caring for my fellow American and caring much about upholding my dignity as an American, I would have grabbed the lousy whoreson by the throat and told him to take his foul mouth disrepectful un-american arse out of this family place. Unfortunately we do not live in a society where that behaviour is condoned. Live, look away and let live, be it scum or scholar. So be it.
 
I am confused when I hear someone say that they would have let them beat them while in a defensive posture. Only when you had determined it was a threat to your life would you have used deadly force? :confused: :confused: Do you have any concept of how fast dynamic situations happen? :eek: By the time you "knew" the BG wanted to kill you is too little too late.
Stop thinking so much and train how and when to deploy your weapon.
I don't want to sound harsh here but my goodness it's called split second decision for a reason.:rolleyes:
 
In Alabama...

In Alabama you cannot use Deadly force in protection of personal property. At any time. Regardless of the situation. Never. You will hang for it.

Example: You leave your lawn mower in the front yard and head in to get some water. When you come back out the door, a BG has pulled over in his pickup truck and is trying to get your mower in the back. Your pistol is in a holster on your body.

The second post in this thread said you can shoot in protection of property. He would have shot and killed the BG if necessary to get his mower. In AL, you would be facing a life sentence or the death penalty. In AL, you would have to either just yell, fight (not gun fight) or just let him go with the mower.

I don't know what states allow deadly force in this case. Maybe someone who knows their state's laws can chime in here.
 
wow ,remind me to stay clear of you ,i protect my self but you were ready to pull your gun because a man yells ,I hate cops and watchout for the NAACP.I think that maybe you are looking for a situation to come up so you can pull your gun.Unless i read your story wrong ,it sounds like you were ready to shoot a man for yelling.
 
In Alabama you cannot use Deadly force in protection of personal property. At any time. Regardless of the situation. Never. You will hang for it.

Example: You leave your lawn mower in the front yard and head in to get some water. When you come back out the door, a BG has pulled over in his pickup truck and is trying to get your mower in the back. Your pistol is in a holster on your body.

The second post in this thread said you can shoot in protection of property. He would have shot and killed the BG if necessary to get his mower. In AL, you would be facing a life sentence or the death penalty. In AL, you would have to either just yell, fight (not gun fight) or just let him go with the mower.

I don't know what states allow deadly force in this case. Maybe someone who knows their state's laws can chime in here
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Alabama law sounds much like Oregon law. We cannot shoot anyone in defense of property. We cannot shoot anyone for beating us to a pulp. We absolutely cannot shoot unless we are assured and can prove that our life was in grave danger. Even then, if it is proven that we provoked the situation by acting like an honorable human being and standing up to the situation instead of walking away like a coward, we are in trouble and called a cowboy. In this scenario, you absolutely cannot pull your gun until you are beaten near death. You guys can say anything you want, but the law is implicit and your fellow citizens will not side with you. You cannot pull a gun unless the situation is so grave that you are sure you need to use deadly force. You can never use the words, "I thought".
 
My personal opinion on this is that getting your gun ready to use but still keeping it out of site in a pocket,under a jacket or in a shopping bag etc. would be a wise thing to do but yelling commands at this person that obviously appeared to be unstable would only escalate the situation.
 
read the thread...

all I can say is,

Spring... Mom!
Rock... on!

Need more like ya, babe.
Keep on keepin' on.
We are with you.
Merry Christmas and may we find you happy and well next year (and many more).
 
My question is this; what if he would have physically assaulted me with out any weapons, fists, feet whatever.
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If he is physically assaulting you, you've waited too long to draw, you've lost the element of surprise and most any other advantage you had. When bad things happen, they happen fast.
 
Good thread, and Weeg, that's funny!

The basic point here is that what constitutes 'mortal fear or fear of grave bodilly injury' is a relative thing, as is what is a 'prudent person' in a given set of circumstances, e.g. a 245 lb linebacker in the prime of life vs. a 56 y.o. woman who has had a couple of brain surgeries with residual nerve damage and associated physical limitataions.

In the scenario cited, I'da had my gun in my hand, dsicretely as possible (in a pocket, behind my thigh, in my coat . . .), but ready to go. As noted, a mentally unstable person is completely unpredictable, you simply don't know his intentions, capabilites, major maladjustment, etc., so while I'd sure try to stay off his radar and not do anything to agitate him, if things got wonky, I'd shoot sooner than later, for all the right reasons.
 
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