A scenario. It happened to me today.

Good discussion here and we've touched on something that's important to a good many people -- physical limitations.

Springmom's limitations may prevent her from even defending herself against a hearty shove. Others may have age-related limitiations or physical conditions that preclude rapid movement (retreat, running away, etc.) or the ability to engage with bare knuckles.

Arthritis in the knees, a bad back, asthmatic or other conditions can have a serious implication on one's tactics and procedures. I used to know one man who was confined to a wheelchair who *gasp* carried illegally in CA after being victimized three times (twice having his chair stolen). The best advice cops could give him was to get a companion for public travels. Yeah, right.

While I would not have drawn in the scenario mentioned, I don't think it's unreasonable that some others might put their hand on their pistol or discretely position it behind their leg or back. The two factors here are the presence of the family and any particular physical limitations the CHL holder has.

Just for a moment, think about having your weak arm in a sling after surgery, or perhaps wearing a cast on your right foot and still having to use a crutch. Or it could be much simpler -- suffering a nasty cold or flu which has made you weak and tired. In these situations your ability to react to a threat will be vastly different. You're likely to change your tactics accordingly.
 
exactly

Arthritis in the knees, a bad back, asthmatic or other conditions can have a serious implication on one's tactics and procedures. I used to know one man who was confined to a wheelchair who *gasp* carried illegally in CA after being victimized three times (twice having his chair stolen). The best advice cops could give him was to get a companion for public travels. Yeah, right.

While I would not have drawn in the scenario mentioned, I don't think it's unreasonable that some others might put their hand on their pistol or discretely position it behind their leg or back. The two factors here are the presence of the family and any particular physical limitations the CHL holder has.
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Right. A hearty shove can break a bone for me. No joke. I fell on my mother in law's tennis court years ago (many years' less prednisone to thin my bones, many years' less muscle wasting) and broke my ankle in three places. I fell at my daughter's wedding and managed to derange my right hip such that it is still in need of cortisone shots into the joint and constant pain management. I fell a couple of years ago walking my dogs and I still have intermittent bleeding in my right knee and cannot place any weight on it at all. (Hm. There seems to be a common thread here. So should I take on a BG hand to hand, guys??? ;) )

I have asthma, so pepper spray might do a lot more damage to ME than to anybody else :eek: The BG can get over pepper spray while I'm laying on the floor with my bronchii closed up and suffocating.

Disparity of force is different for everybody. Dwight is correct: that is what I was trying to say but I thank him, and you others, who have obviously said it better.

Springmom, who will avoid posting late at night anymore so as to try to be more clear, measured, and judicious in her language so as to communicate more effectively :eek: :)
 
No one else was there

So it is hard to say what you would do and how things "felt". I got the sense that this guy was on the edge and I did not want to do anything to push him over the edge, nobody did and nobody spoke a word to this guy which I think is a good thing. I "felt" that this guy was crazy and unpredictable but I was in no way justified (IMO) in pulling a weapon, which I felt would have escalated the situation to possibly him either attacking me or pulling a gun. The last thing I wanted was to escalate the situation in any way and put my family in the line of fire. Remember they were directly behind me. My first concern when he left was that he was going to his car to get an AK or something.

On a lighter note I forgot something else this nut said; he said "watch out for UT, USC!" Refering the upcoming Rose bowl prospects. Really weird.
 
No, No, No!!!

No, Jovan:

On a lighter note I forgot something else this nut said; he said "watch out for UT, USC!" Refering the upcoming Rose bowl prospects. Really weird.
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Clearly, the man had ONE MOMENT OF UTTER CLARITY!!!! Maybe he's a prophet!!!!!! :D

Seriously, I'm glad it came out well, and I shouldn't have "second guessed" you, I expect. I was just thinking out loud (if that's what you can call the internet) about that situation and what I might do. I hope I didn't offend you.

Thanks for posting the event, and I am glad beyond words that you and your family AND the clerk are okay.

HOOK 'EM HORNS!!!!!!!!

Springmom
 
Joven, you performed well, Springmom, I'm in your corner.

Me? I'm 6'2"/ 250# and too old to be in a fist fight with anyone. I will not and do not ever provoke violence, and do not and will not "take a fist to the face" before I choose to neutralize. Let your imagination determine the outcome, but that's how I stand.

I KNOW it's coming, so all ye naysayers...bring it on.
 
springmom,

You have muscle designigration (wasting) disease also?

I've just been reading the thread up until now. Watching other people's opinions and such. I don't think they know about what this disease can do to a person, which can basically make them valunable(sp) to a 10 year old with just alittle bit of strength (not that I would shoot a 10 year old, just showing how much the disease weakens the muscles).

It amazes me how others will jump onto others when they don't know the full deal of what the other has or what their limitations. It also amazes me that they are the first to call for the recending of other peoples rights.

So now you feel yourself having to explain to those that have decided what you should do, while they don't have any idea why you said the things that you have.

Amazing.

Wayne

edited: Sorry, it's taken me an hour to post, phone calls you know.
 
thanks, Wayne

No, the muscle degeneration comes as a result of over 10 years' use of moderate to high doses of prednisone to control lupus and Sjogren's. That also takes calcium out of the bones and makes them brittle. The arthritis is a part of the lupus, and limits my exercise and movement also.

I do what I can to stay in as good a shape as I can, including hunting. But, for example, I went out hunting the other day by myself, carrying my rifle in my hands rather than on my shoulder since I was still hunting. Today I cannot even raise my right arm because the muscles simply are useless. It takes next to nothing to rip tendons and ligaments, tear muscles (that was part of what I did to my hip) and break bones.

Thanks for your support.

Springmom
 
Wow Springmom -- more kudos to you for refusing to be a victim even under your conditions. And for continuing to do the things you enjoy instead of giving up.

In terms of brandishing ... the Colorado law reads like this:

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-106.asp

(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:

(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm at another person; or

(b) Recklessly or with criminal negligence he discharges a firearm or shoots a bow and arrow; or

​

I believe there's a bit more to it than that, however, having to do with felony menacing. In Colorado they can consider it brandishing even if you just pull your coat back to display the weapon.

But brandishing is always tied in with agression. If you're not being the agressor and have reasonable cause to believe another is, you're not brandishing just by drawing a weapon UNLESS you proceed to point it at them or verbally threaten them with it (never threaten anyone with a gun unless you have sufficient need to use one).

And in any case ... no jury is going to take action against a woman, much less a woman with a physical disability, who takes the precaution of removing a firearm from its holster when confronted by a crazy man unless she points it at him or others. Not going to happen.
 
A gun is only a deterrent against rational people
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+1

springmom
I just want to say that I agree that you would have been in the right due to the disparity of force in the situation so long as the weapon was not immediately visible. We all need to remember that we are not all the same and not knowing your situation I would have questioned drawing or even preparing to draw. my wife is disabled and confined to a wheelchair, I sometimes need to remind myself that a situation would be different for her than it would be for me. Sometimes we all need to stop and think and be sure we know all the facts :)
Matt
 
Springmom, Sjogrens disease? IIRC, that involves dry mouth, lack of saliva and tooth decay. I wonder if the stress of fight or flight syndrome would add so much to your physical situation to prevent issuing a verbal challenge? You would in my opinion be in fear of great bodily harm and/or loss of life. I wonder how a Quickie wheelchair bound CCW holder would combat a attacker? I have four wheelchair bound friends with CCWs. All have drawn their weapons in parking lot assaults. I cannot picture a jury not being sympathetic to a handicapped victim of assault. I was unaware of your challenges until you outlined them.
 
You guys need to lay off springmom, remember she's the victim in this. Derius T, you need to remember the laws differ between states. For instance, here in New Mexico, you do not have to pursue all avenues of escape before employing deadly force. You CAN stand your ground and fight when confronted with disparity of force or other life threatening situations. No matter which state your in, just live by the three laws of using lethal force and you should be fine.

1. They must have intent. "I'm going to kill you," is a good indication of intent.
2. They must have opportunity. Being disabled not only gives the perp more than enough opportunity in this case, but also adds even more to disparity of force along with being mentally unstable or suspectedly so.
3. They must have the ability. A 6 foot man can easily crush a 4 foot woman's neck with little to no effort. This of course doesn't apply to everyone but in most cases, and not to sound sexist here, the man can usually over power the woman. That adds to ability, as does the assailant possesing a weapon.

People just use your better judgement. Springmom is still alive and not in prison so she must have done something right.:cool:
 
thanks, guys

I'm beginning to feel badly that this issue with my response to Jovan's post has hijacked the thread.:o Sir William, just to clarify, I am not now in a wheelchair, although I was off and on for a number of years. I do use the little scooter carts at the grocery stores sometimes, though :barf: You are partially correct about Sjogren's: EVERY mucus membrane/moisture producing tissue is affected to a greater or lesser degree. In my case, it's "greater". Yes, it might be hard to yell, but one can usually manage some sort of yell or something to call for help, if not an articulated "Please, sir, I must ask that you leave this establishment immediately" ;)

Jovan made his judgment at the time and he did well; he's alive, his kids and the clerk are alive, the guy did NOT go back for an AK or his homies, and we've probably beaten this dead horse into the ground. +1 to Jovan and his cool head and ability to keep things safe.

And +1 to all of you who understand that some of us have to assess situations from a different perspective.

Springmom, the wimpy gimpy choir director now off to church :D
 
Back on topic and off of Springmom's back.

I think this is a perfect instance where a can of pepper spray would be just about perfect. It is very effective and it's not a crime to have it out and ready to use in case they guy would have flaked out even more.

I think anyone who carries a gun for protection shoudl carry a less than lethal alternative just in case!
 
Pepper Spray

Pepper Spray doesn't always work on people. Some have very bad reactions to it others don't have any. As part of our training for the AZ Rangers we are give the chance to see how OC spray will work on you. Some folks really flip out almost as soon as it hits them some like myself never even flinched. So to the best of my knowledge OC spray works to some point as long as you can stay away from your attacker for at least 20 to 30 seconds. But as we know 20 sec. can be a life time. So what ever you use for a less lethal weapon such as a baton (by the way it's an 8 hr. class) you need to know how to use it or it can be taken away and used on you. BE Safe Out There. Kurt
 
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How many forum posters does it take to change a light bulb?


1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 grammar Nazis to point out spelling/grammar errors

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"

6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"

27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again…
 
Anybody carry a small taser? Something I have thought of for alternative carry in certain situations. No small ones with darts that I know of though.
One thing that I don't think was emphasized enough though. A BG can cover fifteen feet in a split second. Would it not be prudent to at least have your hand in a "ready" position?
I forgot who made the post about not staring at the BG but I disagree completely. I would NEVER take my eyes off him. That does not mean I would be making threatening faces but to take your eyes off your opponent is allowing him the advantage.
 
LMFAO WEEG!:)


Oh ya I forgot also. Spring..... HOOK EM HORNS!!!!!!!(just got back from hurst a few weeks ago and somehow "lost" 5 HOURS in Cabela's:o )
 
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