A road rage incident I saw; could the victim have legally pulled a gun?

Status
Not open for further replies.
About if you draw the gun, he will leave - you can find many cases where the outraged person seems to respond to that challenge with : You gonna shoot me? Come on!

Not hard to find cases of such. While deterrence works most of the time - don't count on it, so point a gun is when it is justifiable to use deadly force. If it deters at that time, that's good.
 
Looking at 3 pages of questions and responses will give the reason I do not carry a weapon.

I do not live in an area in which I spend the entire day thinking that I'm going to be attacked or harmed. If I did I would move from the area because I refuse to live like that. Also as is pointed out there are just too many legal gray areas and the repercussions of being wrong are very steep.

There are 2 basic instincts, Flight or Fight. My wife and I have discussed this and Flight wins out every time. When Flight leads to cornered, no escape then it is time to Fight. Now you people can argue Stand your Ground all day long and that is fine if that is your feeling on the subject. We are staying with Flight First.
 
That is a legitimate choice for someone. However, we don't want to divert the thread to a general discussion of whether one should carry or not. I also fear some will want to post rude replies.

Thus, folks stay on the topic of what to do in the situation and don't wander into what I just cautioned against.
 
Glen that is not a problem for me and completely understand your points. Just stating my position and only my position as I firmly believe everyone should be able to carry if they so choose. I just choose not to and would rather run than fight if at all possible.

I see nothing wrong with fleeing and if some want to consider that cowardly well I can live with that also.

I have been involved in incidents of road rage and it's not fun. As long as one can move there is means to escape. Boxed in while in traffic is a horrible place to be.
 
That's legit. Folks have suggested that. In the couple of car tactics courses, I took - the plan was drive away as first response. It is more fun to learn to shoot through car windows from the inside and outside but leaving trumps that.
 
Trying not to diverge from the topic but a friend on another forum is a member of a small IPDA club and he has posted some videos of his runs thru the course. In all instances there is a position of firing from inside a car. Does look like fun.

Even our designed plan for a home invasion revolves around escape first, cover and hide second and fight back last. The only thing in my home that cannot be replaced is my wife or myself. We do have multiple guns throughout the house and she knows how to use them all.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
I have seen cars and trucks shot up in matches by accident or carelessness.
Click to expand...
I would consider it mandatory to use a stripped junker with everything removed that could cause ricochets (e.g. engine, transmission, axles) or explosions/fires (battery, airbags, fuel and evap systems).

Frankly, if I were setting up the match, I would consider building a mockup dummy car out of plywood and mounting junkyard seats and a steering wheel in it. It would be a lot easier to move and the chances of ricochets would be lessened.
 
I do not live in an area in which I spend the entire day thinking that I'm going to be attacked or harmed.
Click to expand...
Nor do I.

Also as is pointed out there are just too many legal gray areas and the repercussions of being wrong are very steep.
Click to expand...
The repercussions of not being able to defend oneself against an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm are a whole lot steeper.

I see nothing wrong with fleeing and if some want to consider that cowardly well I can live with that also.
Click to expand...
The duty to retreat was a long-standing one, but in recent years some jurisdictions have eliminated it. There have been good reasons for that, but the purpose has not really been to discourage retreat when retreat is safely possible.

Retreat is almost always the prudent thing to do when it comes to self-preservation, but it is not always possible.

And the question becomes "and then what do you do?".
 
From the majority of news story I read most acts of violence the victim is blind sided and doesn't even know what hit them. So even if armed they do not have the time to react and most violent attacks are over in seconds.

I tend to avoid high crime areas as best I can and in my area I know where they are.

In this case I would much sooner explain running a red light than trying to defend against a homicide charge. I'm sure others feel the opposite.
 
kmw1954 said:
I just choose not to and would rather run than fight if at all possible.
Click to expand...
I'd like to think that all of us would choose to avoid a violent confrontation if it can be done safely. Not just because it's a safer option (physically and legally) but because it's also one that reduces the chance of having to take someone's life.
 
Let’s reframe this and take the gun out of the equation. If you see a guy behind you in traffic get out of his car and walk towards your vehicle while screaming would you be justified if you put your car in reverse and ran over him? Good luck with that.
 
Or another real perspective. Last night on our local new was a story of an 80yo couple that were taken flight for life to Milwaukee hospital after a home invasion. The perp is still on the loose and this was only about 35min from my house.

This is why I rearmed myself and taught my wife how to shoot. We are 8mi. outside of town and the police are not always close by.
 
I can't understand why this is so hard.
If you are security conscious enough to carry,it would be consistent to lock your doors .If your window is down,that little button rolls it up. Doors locked,windows up.If you have that secure perimeter,he can't touch you. And at that point,you do not face deadly threat.Not unless you see a weapon.
If you escalate or antagonize,your self defense case deteriorates.
I am not any kind of legal scholar. I think there is something about your car being a domicile,at least in some states. In my state,technically I couldcarry concealed without a permit inside my car,as my domicile. If I step out of the car,no permit and I'm busted.If that principle holds true,someone breaking into my car to harm me is the same as someone breaking into my home to harm me. I can defend my domicile(legal experts,step in).That's not the same as kicking dents in my door. Broken glass might make my case.(The link in post #34 is a good read. He rolled his window down,believing in civil communication. Its a lesson)

Driving away: I just do not get right up on the bumper of the car in front of me at a stop.I hate the feel of being boxed in.If I choose to drive away,its not likely it will be impossible.Any situation that could justify deadly force justifies driving any escape route that does not include running over people. Driveway,yard,sidewalk,redlights....
If you are not capable of safely running a red light with caution,,you are not capable of responsibly launching 9mm bullets in the same environment.

Generally,we will either be aware enough to have TIME TO ACT,where WE HAVE THE INITIATIVE...or we wait until we are REACTING,and the attacker has the initiative.
Reacting to an attacker who has the means,intent,and opportunity to kill is a perilous situation.
Proactively using deadly force ,taking the initiative...does not generally qualify as self defense. The proactive options ,where you still have the initiative,are mostly about avoiding or escaping danger. How you use seconds can matter a lot. And no one can tell you the answer ahead of time because chaos is creative.

Life is not fair. Don't expect it to be. Our society ,in most locations (I said that for the Texans) has a default dim view of anyone who uses a gun or other deadly force IN NEARLY EVERY SITUATION.

Forget the idea of "Under these circumstances,can I use my gun?"
You CAN make the decision to use your gun any time. In any case where you introduce a firearm,whether you shoot or not,you want to be the one who dialed 911 and reported it. Don't even think its over if you holster and drive away.
When you ,or,someone else,inform the police about it,you MAY get to walk,but assume you will be charged.
And assume a jury will decide "If you are justified in .......your gun"

Because NOTHING ANYONE SAYS ON THIS FORUM will work for a "Get out of jail"card.

You can get an idea of the level of restraint advisable.

Instead of complicating it,I make it real simple. When the time comes,I'll probably know. Do I have any other choice? Am I stopping someone from killing me? I don't think I will have time to analyze it.

IMO,there is no "OK,I can shoot him" Its "Is there any way I can not shoot him and live or stay whole"
Because a JURY will decide if it was OK for you to shoot.Not the internet.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top