OldMarksman
Staff
Just what would justify that, in your mind?
(Not that that would support lawful justification)
A road rage incident I saw; could the victim have legally pulled a gun?
- Thread starter Psychedelic Bang
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(Not that that would support lawful justification)
Psychedelic Bang
New member
So I think the Vern Smalley incident is very different - I agree with the sentiment that Vern could have just let it go the moment he was cut off. However, that incident was laid to rest well near 25 years ago, and I will leave it with the courts and the jury.
After reading all the responses to the thread, it is obvious that drawing your gun in this situation would not have been, "proportionate or reasonable." However, in FL I am not sure if avoidance applies, and innocence definitely existed here as the victim driver didn't really start anything, he just did not respond when somebody behind him was screaming, "make the right." As for, "imminence," I do not know if that existed or not because the light turned green and the situation ended.
All 5 criteria for the use of any force (deadly or not) in self defense were not met.
I've also learned that, "brandishing," is a term used to define a crime. I did not know this before I made the thread. Which is why in my first post here I used the wording, "could you draw or brandish," your weapon.
I have never had a situation while I've been armed where I could have drawn my weapon. Which is strange, because I have had situations where I have been unarmed and I could have drawn a weapon. However, even in the situations where I was unarmed and could have drawn, I managed to walk away unscathed. Both situations though, where when somebody pulled a knife on me in a threatening manner, and even though they did not attack, I think its safe to say that if somebody within 3 feet of you pulls a knife and threatens you, you can legally draw your weapon.
I think after this thread I am ready to order my copy of Ayoob's, "in the gravest extreme." Unfortunately I have already have a zillion things on my plate this month, but I will read it sometime in December.
I really enjoyed all the responses so far, I look forward to continue reading the thread if it continues to develop.
After reading all the responses to the thread, it is obvious that drawing your gun in this situation would not have been, "proportionate or reasonable." However, in FL I am not sure if avoidance applies, and innocence definitely existed here as the victim driver didn't really start anything, he just did not respond when somebody behind him was screaming, "make the right." As for, "imminence," I do not know if that existed or not because the light turned green and the situation ended.
All 5 criteria for the use of any force (deadly or not) in self defense were not met.
I've also learned that, "brandishing," is a term used to define a crime. I did not know this before I made the thread. Which is why in my first post here I used the wording, "could you draw or brandish," your weapon.
I have never had a situation while I've been armed where I could have drawn my weapon. Which is strange, because I have had situations where I have been unarmed and I could have drawn a weapon. However, even in the situations where I was unarmed and could have drawn, I managed to walk away unscathed. Both situations though, where when somebody pulled a knife on me in a threatening manner, and even though they did not attack, I think its safe to say that if somebody within 3 feet of you pulls a knife and threatens you, you can legally draw your weapon.
I think after this thread I am ready to order my copy of Ayoob's, "in the gravest extreme." Unfortunately I have already have a zillion things on my plate this month, but I will read it sometime in December.
I really enjoyed all the responses so far, I look forward to continue reading the thread if it continues to develop.
I had a somewhat similar incident not long ago. I had a green left turn light while the traffic facing me had a red light. I started turning left, and since I was towing a trailer I swung wide into the right hand lane. As I was turning, a car facing me made a right on the red directly in front of me. I hit the horn and he stopped immediately, exited his car and started approaching my car screaming and yelling that he had the right of way and that I was turning into the wrong lane. I calmly told him to calm down and get back in his car, saying there was no harm done, but that in fact he had made a right turn on red as I was turning on a green light and that I had the right of way. This really set him off (I probably should have said nothing, but I did) and he started coming toward me, with fists clenched, face red as a beet and screaming something or other.
He was about a foot taller than I am, about 50 pounds heavier, and besides that, I am 74 and have some real medical challenges that would preclude me even thinking about grappling with this maniac. I moved my hand to my hip but did not draw my firearm. I'm not sure if he saw me move my right hand, but as soon as I did he started backing off and stopped screaming. So all ended well.
My wife, who was shook up at the whole incident, asked me if I was thinking about actually shooting this person. I answered that had he continued and done something that would put me in fear for my life then yes, I would have used my gun. Fortunately nothing happened, no police were involved, and we both went on our way. I was very glad, however, that I was armed at the time, just in case.
He was about a foot taller than I am, about 50 pounds heavier, and besides that, I am 74 and have some real medical challenges that would preclude me even thinking about grappling with this maniac. I moved my hand to my hip but did not draw my firearm. I'm not sure if he saw me move my right hand, but as soon as I did he started backing off and stopped screaming. So all ended well.
My wife, who was shook up at the whole incident, asked me if I was thinking about actually shooting this person. I answered that had he continued and done something that would put me in fear for my life then yes, I would have used my gun. Fortunately nothing happened, no police were involved, and we both went on our way. I was very glad, however, that I was armed at the time, just in case.
stephen426
New member
There are a few assumptions that we are making the wrong one could be deadly,
Just because someone is well dressed does not mean that they are not dangerous. He could have been armed and he was obviously a hot head. When you are in your car, your exact location is known and you have little to no real cover. A car is not a good place to be in a shoot out.
Avoid the situation if possible and leave the area if possible to do so safely. If there was traffic and the light was red, I do not believe leaving was an option.
With all that said, I would have possibly put my hand on my weapon so I could draw quickly in case the road rager produced a weapon. If that did not stop the aggression, I would draw my gun and have it at low ready. If the road rager produced a weapon, I believe the only option would be to shoot him.
Just because someone is well dressed does not mean that they are not dangerous. He could have been armed and he was obviously a hot head. When you are in your car, your exact location is known and you have little to no real cover. A car is not a good place to be in a shoot out.
Avoid the situation if possible and leave the area if possible to do so safely. If there was traffic and the light was red, I do not believe leaving was an option.
With all that said, I would have possibly put my hand on my weapon so I could draw quickly in case the road rager produced a weapon. If that did not stop the aggression, I would draw my gun and have it at low ready. If the road rager produced a weapon, I believe the only option would be to shoot him.
CalmerThanYou
New member
My reply on page one remains the correct answer. JohnKSa summed up the rest. Simple option to flee overrules angry yeller.
Once you exit your car in an aggressive manner my gun is going to be drawn and "casually" sitting on my right leg with my hand on it. It's not visible at that point unless you are standing at my window and easily stashed in front in the console if you calm down. I am also leaving as soon as I can safely go through the light (by the way this is one of the reasons to leave space) regardless of light color.
What are you going to tell the officer? When I approached the vehicle to yell at him about not turning right I saw a gun?
No reasonable officer is going to push the issue. No reasonable prosecutor around where I live is going to push the issue. No jury around where I live is going to convict.
What are you going to tell the officer? When I approached the vehicle to yell at him about not turning right I saw a gun?
No reasonable officer is going to push the issue. No reasonable prosecutor around where I live is going to push the issue. No jury around where I live is going to convict.
zincwarrior
New member
Leaving the scene if at all possible SAFELY is obviously the best choice, but it may be limited by the fact situation at hand (traffic, other vehicles in your way).
Of course the worst choice is exiting your own vehicle. Even if you are in a bystander vehicle and see that its good to vacate the premises in case they do draw on each other or other wise do something to put you (the bystander vehicle) in danger.
Of course the worst choice is exiting your own vehicle. Even if you are in a bystander vehicle and see that its good to vacate the premises in case they do draw on each other or other wise do something to put you (the bystander vehicle) in danger.
OldMarksman
Staff
That term is used in some jurisdictions, and not in others. When it is used, the seriousness varies. It may simply apply to careless, irresponsible, or dangerous behavior in the presence of others that might be classified as a misdemeanor.
But not in the case at hand. In an encounter or confrontation, the crime would most likely be classified as something else--something much more serious. The issue is entirely one of lawful justification, which will very somewhat among jurisdictions.
Refer to this, and note that it may not necessary to actually draw or show a gun to be charged with a crime:
spacemanspiff
New member
Its why I always wear Boots of Escapement.
It might be sometimes defined as brandishing. It's more likely to be called "assault with a deadly weapon", or "aggravated assault" or something similar.
Displaying a gun in such a way that another (reasonable) person fears that they will imminently harmed requires sufficient justification. Otherwise it is a serious crime.
insman1132
New member
Suppose the raging person starts kicking your car??
CalmerThanYou
New member
^^Then he gets swiss cheesed, Kidding. Man I am protective of my car, but same deal. Drive away, but now I for sure am dialing 911, try to obtain a Lic. # and retreating just far enough away to meet with the Police.
It wouldn't be legal use deadly force to stop someone from kicking your car in any area I'm aware of.
As far as displaying a gun to stop them, it depends on the laws in your area. It might be legal, in some areas, to display a weapon to deter someone from damaging/continuing to damage property. In TX, for example, the justification required for displaying a weapon to prevent a crime is lower than the justification required for the use of deadly force. You still have to satisfy a set of legal criteria before it would be legal, but it's a different set than what is required to justify actually using deadly force.
In some areas, the justification required to display a gun is much higher and it might be illegal.
It's important to not get into the mode of thinking that because a gun is available, other simple solutions don't need to be explored.
Even where it's legal, it's probably not wise unless it looks like the attack is escalating and it appears that the person is breaking into the car to cause bodily harm.
If you can leave the scene, that would be a good option. If you can leave the scene before they get close enough to start kicking your car, that's an even better option.
The exceptions in the law providing for the legal use of deadly force and the legal use of weapons to deter people from committing serious crimes are there to protect citizens who are driven to extreme action by violent attackers. The proper mindset is to understand that they are there as a "safety net", as a "last resort". The idea that we should be constantly reviewing those laws to see if we can legally pull out a gun and use it is inconsistent with their purpose.
Think about a pilot in a fighter jet. Do you think that during an engagement with an enemy pilot he's constantly thinking things like: "Can I pull the ejection handle now?" "Oh, he's closer now, maybe now?" "What if he fires a missile, then can I do it?" Of course he's not. The ejection seat is a last resort tool. It's not something that the pilot WANTS to use. He doesn't sit around dreaming up scenarios where he GETS to pull the ejection handle. He will use it if he HAS to when there's no other option. THAT is the proper mindset we should have towards our carry guns.
As far as displaying a gun to stop them, it depends on the laws in your area. It might be legal, in some areas, to display a weapon to deter someone from damaging/continuing to damage property. In TX, for example, the justification required for displaying a weapon to prevent a crime is lower than the justification required for the use of deadly force. You still have to satisfy a set of legal criteria before it would be legal, but it's a different set than what is required to justify actually using deadly force.
In some areas, the justification required to display a gun is much higher and it might be illegal.
It's important to not get into the mode of thinking that because a gun is available, other simple solutions don't need to be explored.
Even where it's legal, it's probably not wise unless it looks like the attack is escalating and it appears that the person is breaking into the car to cause bodily harm.
If you can leave the scene, that would be a good option. If you can leave the scene before they get close enough to start kicking your car, that's an even better option.
The exceptions in the law providing for the legal use of deadly force and the legal use of weapons to deter people from committing serious crimes are there to protect citizens who are driven to extreme action by violent attackers. The proper mindset is to understand that they are there as a "safety net", as a "last resort". The idea that we should be constantly reviewing those laws to see if we can legally pull out a gun and use it is inconsistent with their purpose.
Think about a pilot in a fighter jet. Do you think that during an engagement with an enemy pilot he's constantly thinking things like: "Can I pull the ejection handle now?" "Oh, he's closer now, maybe now?" "What if he fires a missile, then can I do it?" Of course he's not. The ejection seat is a last resort tool. It's not something that the pilot WANTS to use. He doesn't sit around dreaming up scenarios where he GETS to pull the ejection handle. He will use it if he HAS to when there's no other option. THAT is the proper mindset we should have towards our carry guns.
Frankly, If a person leaves his car and proceeds toward your car screaming like a idiot and out of control, you have every right to get yourself into a position to protect yourself. If you cannot move your car without putting yourself into jeopardy you have every right to protect yourself because this guy is acting wildly he could be on drugs and have a gun or another weapon. Having your gun in a position to immediately protect yourself from harm is key to protecting your life.
There are other issues that are not discussed, what if you are a woman with a baby in the car or a elderly person not capable of defending yourself from some crazy guy, one punch could kill you.
If you draw your gun, he will leave, if he doesn't you have a clear case that this guy is crazy and your life is in danger.
There are other issues that are not discussed, what if you are a woman with a baby in the car or a elderly person not capable of defending yourself from some crazy guy, one punch could kill you.
If you draw your gun, he will leave, if he doesn't you have a clear case that this guy is crazy and your life is in danger.
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You ALWAYS have the right to protect yourself. That's the whole point of the laws allowing the display of weapons and the use of deadly force. That's not in question at all, at least in any locale with reasonable self-defense laws.
The only thing that's debatable is whether or not the law says you really need protection based on the circumstances of the situation as you reasonably believe them to be at the time of the incident.
It's worth pointing out that someone leaving their car, or screaming like an idiot, or speculation about possible drug use, or speculation about possible weapons the person could have, or "what ifs" that don't actually relate to the facts of the incident, won't provide justification if no justification exists.
The problem is that drawing a gun without justification can be a serious crime. You don't want to get into the mode of thinking that anytime you want someone to leave, you can just pull a gun on them.
Said another way, if you're going to commit aggravated assault/assault with a deadly weapon (drawing on someone), you need to be sure that the circumstances of the situation clearly justify that action.
And you don't want to get into the mode of thinking that if you draw on someone and they don't comply with your wishes, that is automatically justification for shooting them.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
If you draw your gun absent legal justification, the other guy may have a better deadly force self defense case than you do. It is always a good idea to remember you may not be the only guy with a gun.
Rangerrich99
New member
I hope that you're joking with that.
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