A road rage incident I saw; could the victim have legally pulled a gun?

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Psychedelic Bang

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I did not know whether to put this in Law and Civil rights, or here in General Discussion, or even in Tactics - mods feel free to move where you see fit.

This is the incident that really just happened, I witnessed it first hand on my way home from a martial arts class tonight.

The situation unfolds: there is an accident on a busy street at about 8pm. Delray beach, Atlantic ave, and US1 - just if anybody knows where that is. The street has three lanes, the far left lane is left turn only no turn on red. The far right lane is right turn, or go straight. The center lane is go straight only, obviously...

I'm in the far left lane, first car, waiting for a green light to make a left, its obvious that before I got there the cars had been there quite a while. This was probably an accident that was just about clearing.

I hear screaming in the far right lane, the guy is screaming, "make the right, make the right." But the car directly in front of him is going straight, and frankly, isn't required to make the right. The screaming man gets out of his car, and he's just full of rage, and he's all crazy looking, but dressed very well, and definitely was not a poor looking man, or a thug. He's like, "an upper middle class looking guy," could even be a doctor dress in a casual outfit. but he's so enraged and storms up to the car in the front lane and he's screaming, "make this turn explicative."

All of a sudden it seems the light flips green. and the car dude was screaming at, goes straight across the light and out of this situation.

I make my left turn and think to myself, "omg, if you came up to my car like that, screaming like a maniac..."

Do you pull your gun in the situation I just described? Can you legally brandish a firearm in that situation?

Or...

Do you not pull a gun? Maybe pulling a gun is too much in that situation. Maybe you have to wait until the road rage maniac pulls a gun, or physically attacks you?
 
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I may have a hand on my gun, but will not draw/display (as in letting it be seen by anybody) till an actually threat occurs. With the other guy only screaming and cussing, in my opinion at lest, does not qualify as a life endangering justification for escalation or for use of force.
 
Why on Earth would you pull your gun? You're in an enclosed vehicle made of metal and tempered glass, while that man is outside of your vehicle and appears to be unarmed.

Like others have said, he's not anywhere near enough of a threat to draw your gun at that point. Just drive away.

If you feel the need, try to take a picture of him and his license plate and then contact the police ASAP.
 
You had better be able to prove to 12 of your “peers” you thought your life was in danger. I’m not sure what your state laws are, but generally escalating the situation makes you the bad guy.
 
Florida Statutes said:
776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—
(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
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OK, take a look at that statute and explain to me where a reasonable person would have thought there was imminent great bodily harm, forcible felony or death.
 
re: Bartholomew Roberts

So obviously the answer is, "not yet, and no." A gun could definitely not have been pulled yet, and possibly not at all.

The thing is, the light turned green, and the victim drove off.. immediately ending the situation. Had that not happened, we don't know where the aggressor would have gone.

Thus making the answer provided by sgms very viable, "I may have a hand on my gun, but will not draw/display (as in letting it be seen by anybody) till an actually threat occurs."
 
"Get the he11 out of Dodge" by moving away from the scene as safely and quickly as possible.
Then call 911 if there wasn't already an officer there, once you've cleared the area.
 
The thing is, the light turned green, and the victim drove off.. immediately ending the situation. Had that not happened, we don't know where the aggressor would have gone.
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He could have made the right, even if the light hadn't changed. Pulling a gun on someone without proper justification is not legal. Turning right on red is legal.

It's important to not get into the mode of thinking that because a gun is available, other simple solutions don't need to be explored.

Let's say that the guy had seen the looney approaching and decided to turn right to get away. What does that cost him? Three additional turns and a few seconds to get back onto his preferred route? How is pulling a gun on someone preferable to a few seconds of inconvenience?

People lose perspective and get really confused about what's important and what isn't. I've seen people nearly kill themselves to avoid missing a highway exit as if some major catastrophe will befall them if they have go to the next exit, come back around and try again. Reality is that it will only cost them a few minutes of their time and it is a much safer option.

Along the same lines, why risk a deadly force confrontation over going straight instead of making a right when going right costs only a small inconvenience that's hardly worth mentioning?

Deadly force laws provide a safety net for law-abiding citizens who have no other choice but to use deadly force for the defense of innocent life.

Said another way, if you are trapped on the top floor of a burning building and there's no other way down then you jump and hope the safety net works as intended. But if you can safely take the stairs, there's no point in jumping.

Don't be the person that sees the safety net and decides that the presence of the net somehow constrains them to jump even when there are simpler and safer options available.
 
The way someone is dressed is not indicative of their mental state. Very well could be under the influence of something, drugs, alcohol.

I do not carry, by choice so most likely would have proceeded as the driver did. Stay calm and alert, avoid direct eye contact and be prepared to bolt.. Then leave the idiot standing in the road!
 
This is not perfect...
But generally,if you have to ask "Can I?"...Not yet

If you figure it just does not matter if you lose your home,go deep into debt,have your life in turmoil for a year or two,and maybe get a jail term...Then get sued ...
If its a choice between those and being killed,then you might want to slap leather. Unless,of course,you can lock the doors,roll up the windows....
Even (gasp) look to see if it is safe and drive through the red light or over a curb and down the sidewalk.
If an Officer sees you and pulls you over,its not all bad. I'm sure he/she would be interested in the story.
Now,if your primal brain recognizes "I am about to die" then choose any available option. But remember,panic is so unbecoming
On TV,a gun might be a talisman of power that lets you take control of a situation where you feel powerless.
We don't want to do that in real life.They don't use guns on the set of the Jerry Springer show.
The handcuffs,the back seat of the patrol car...if that's OK because you are alive...It was probably OK to draw.
 
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A very similar incident happened here in Akron Ohio a number of years ago.

A cab driver was attacked by a screaming maniac.
The screamer jumped out of the car he was driving, ran towards the cab & punched the window - causing the glass to break.

Cab driver pulled a gun from under the seat & killed the guy.

He was acquitted of the crime - but - since he was a felon, he drew a mandatory 3 year sentence for having a gun.

His attorney rigged up a 12 pound bowling ball on a rope & swung it against a car door's window in the court room.
The ball bounced off the glass.
The jury was convinced the attacker was acting with some kind of super human strength and that the cabbie was indeed in fear of his life.

Personally - I like the earlier comment about just driving away and heading towards the nearest police station.
 
I want to throw a ‘what if’ scenario in here. What if the the guy whacked at the window with the side of his hand whilst screaming? Or what if he was carrying a baseball bat or tire iron. In either of those 2 can you at least brandish your gun?
 
If you would be justified in using deadly force, then you would also be justified in threatening deadly force.

In some areas, you may be able to threaten deadly force (brandish) when a lower threshold of justification is present, but you would need to know the laws in your area to be sure that threshold was met.
In either of those 2 can you at least brandish your gun?
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Deadly force laws should not be used as a laundry list to be checked off before it's legal to shoot someone. Those laws are not written to be a "how to" set of instructions to follow if a person wants to use deadly force.

They're provided so that people who have no alternative but to use deadly force to protect innocent life don't suffer the consequences that would normally come with taking such drastic action.

If you must to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or serious injury then do what you must do to survive or to protect innocent life. If you don't have to use deadly force, then don't worry about what you CAN legally do--just solve the problem the simple way. That is the smart thing to do.

Look, if none of that resonates, then think about it like this. Let's say you pull your gun on someone because you think you're legally justified in doing so per your personal legal checklist labeled: "If you can check off all these laws, then 'Congratulations! You may now pull out your gun in public!'". Let's say that the prosecutor has a different opinion. Now picture yourself in a courtroom when this question is asked: "So, when the man ran at your car screaming with the tire iron, why didn't you just drive away?" You want to be able to provide an answer that CLEARLY fits the circumstances and CLEARLY explains why what you did was the only reasonable response to the threat. You don't want to have to handwave an excuse for why you didn't just take the obvious solution by trying to explain why you chose to show the man your gun when you could have just made the whole problem go away by pressing the accelerator.
He was acquitted of the crime ...
His attorney...
The jury...
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I don't know the exact circumstances of his case--driving away may not have been an option in his situation--maybe he was boxed in. But I'm willing to bet a large sum of money that he would tell you from experience that driving away is a lot simpler and cheaper and less stressful than hiring an attorney and getting a jury to acquit you.
 
Re: Red light, green light. --> Making the right on red may or may not be legal, but it's justifiable & defensible. Personally, I wouldn't care if making the right on red is legal or not. I wouldn't even care if I had to flat out run the red light. If I could safely end the situation by committing some minor traffic violation, I'd be G.O.N.E., gone! If I have to stand in front of a judge and explain that I made that "Improper Use of Traffic Lanes" because some road-rager was screaming at me through my window and all that goes with it, .... sign me up. I'm way more worried about some lunatic at my window than I am a traffic judge.

Re: Baseball bats and tire irons --> You're asking the wrong question. In the final analysis, the question you should ask yourself is not, "Can I shoot?," but rather, "Do I have to shoot?"
 
Had that not happened, we don't know where the aggressor would have gone
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Well, we may not know where he is going; but we have some ideas where he cannot go. The aggressor probably isn't a wizard. He is constrained by the physical world. Since we are sitting in a sturdy glass and metal box, he is not going to sucker punch us. If he produces a bat or tire iron, we'll have plenty of warning since he isn't going to pull it out of his pants.

So our main concern would be a small, concealable weapon that can penetrate our vehicle - a knife, sap or gun mainly. So, let's say he does have such a weapon. Are you better off driving away or trying to shoot it out while he is mobile and you are sitting strapped to your vehicle?

In the scenario you outline, I don't think a gun is a good solution even if it was a legally permissible solution. We spend a lot of time talking about "getting off the x." Better to put that right foot down and do that instead of sitting seatbelted to several thousand pounds of metal on the x.
 
In the final analysis, the question you should ask yourself is not, "Can I shoot?," but rather, "Do I have to shoot?"
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Spot on. Using deadly force, even when justifiable, should be last resort. CCW'ers do not go on the offense (short of efforts to stop a mass shooting, I believe that has happened at a mall before). Defense only. More often than not, fleeing a conflict is a far better defense than to stay and fight, even if you are armed. Especially when you're in a car. Worse case scenario? The guy follows you. Then just drive to the nearest Police Station.
 
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