A 'person' with a knife

Interesting - the serious responses. Knives are extremely dangerous. I was an expert witness on a case where a young man got into a dispute with an older man. The older man took out a little paring knife, stuck it once into the chest of the young man who dropped stone cold dead as the cut dumped his blood supply. Lucky hit?

I'd appreciate more serious comments as folks have been there on this one. It's not a mall ninja scenario.
 
As kind of an aside on this subject; I'm a hardcore bowhunter and have killed God-alone-knows how many head of game in my lifetime.

I can tell you that it's extremely common for a broadhead through the vitals to kill a big game animal in 10 seconds or less. I personally consider a broadhead to be a far more efficient killing instrument than a bullet from any firearm I own.

On the theme of serious responses and actual experience, I once tracked a guy from a crime scene who had been stabbed in the liver with a steak knife, by his blood trail on the street & sidewalk. He made it three blocks, and I could have followed that blood trail with my nose, it was so copious.

Only a fool or the uninformed underestimates edged weapons...
 
Chris Phelps said:
In either case, I would wait for them to get within arms reach of me, grab the wrist of the hand holding the knife, pull it in the direction they were running, then quickly snap it back, effectivly [sic] taking their feet out from under them and landing them on their back, I would then quickly twist in the downward direction of their arm, while pulling up to roll their body over... then I would put my knee in their back, lock their elbow in a position in which it was impossible for them to move, and proceed to yell for someone to call the police.
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Not everyone is trained in hand-to-hand combat at a level which would make this even remotely possible. Even for those that are, not everyone has the speed and/or agility to perform a maneuver such as this. Not everyone has the strength to do the same, as well.

Knives are dangerous. When we used knives in class (of the rubber variety), it was very monotonous, very predictive, and very telegraphed. Our instructor made it very clear to us that even an untrained person with an edged weapon, coming towards you with erratic movements, would be a serious threat. The movies and even classroom exercises make it seem easy – but it is not.

I think most people with common sense realize this. Therefore, IMO, those posting that they would draw and fire do not necessarily coincide with your assumption:
Chris Phelps said:
...CCW's have allowed people to slack off in their hand to hand combat skills. Too many people are eager to shoot someone in these situations.
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...it only means they're more than likely, just being realistic. Now, you could be a complete uber-ninja, I have no idea. But for the average, above average, and even skilled person; taking on a deranged lunatic with an edged weapon is an absolute tactical disaster.


Edited to answer Glen's original post:
#1 - Bang, you're dead.

#2 - I'd take some stabbings from my son if I thought I could over-come him eventually. But ultimately, I'll kill anyone who's trying to kill me. Even a son deserves to die when he's so messed up he's murdering his own family members. That goes for any human IMO.

So yes, the value of a person does make a difference to me - at least initially.
 
I see no reason to put myself in further danger,I like it here and don't want to die yet .so I shoot the S.O.B and call the cops .trained or not he may be better than I am at hand to hand and I'm too old and smart to find out the hard way .
 
Remember that the interesting part of the scenario is NOT the standard Tueller nutso - it is the loved one.

If it makes it more interesting - let's say your 12 year old daughter (thus evoking all sort of gender related protective instances) comes flying out of the door at you. Or you could still go with your son.
 
If you can not physically over-come your 12yr old daughter with only a few knicks and scratches... :rolleyes:

Make the scenario more ridiculous... c'mon you can do it! :)

It seems like you're trying to get at something, Glenn. Where are you steering us? :confused:
 
Uggghhh, My rating is as follows.

Stranger...Shoot Dead

Family Friend, Parents, Wife....Shoot in leg, then try to disarm manually.

Kids...get a pass, and I will try to disarm manually....my kids are still little so I can't see even wounding them...that may change as they hit Teenage years.
 
This reminds me a story my dad told me of two of his brothers (I never really knew that side of the family). Tom was a raging alcoholic, bar fighter, extremely violent man. For whatever reason he came to my uncles house and a confrontation developed between the 2 brothers and uncle tom's friend.
The good uncle had a .22 rifle and shot him 3 or 4 times starting in the lower leg or knee and ending up in the shoulder, and said something like the next one's in your head. uncle tom and the other guy left. I don't remember any details if my uncle was prosecuted or anything, it had to have been investigated, he was probably cleared of any wrong doing.
(That is what you call white trash)
On a side note that was not the only time uncle Tom took multiple gunshots. One night playing cards at a bar some guy shot him (I think my dad said it was a .32 revolver) a couple times (presumably to the upper torso). Tom was so drunk he didn't realize he had been hit, went right back to playing cards after the guy fled.

Just a true story of use of force against family. Don't think I was raised anything like these guys.
 
Trip20 - I meant your kid is waving a large knife. I didn't mean to divert from the original story but responding instead to the idea that it was about some SOB.

I once heard a cop say the scaries thing he ever saw was an 8 year old with a butcher knife, waving at blurring speed, coming right at him.

Am I steering you? Not trying to - I was interested in the absolute nature of responses to a Tueller. The other forum thread was what sparked my interest as we have a pretty good group. PM me if you want to know that thread.

I was thinking along the lines of the heuristic value of gun training as compared to folks who think it is without variance. Tueller - shoot!!
 
Now that I know what a "Tueller" is (sorta), it makes more sense (kinda). PM sent for the other thread. Learn me somethin'!

For those who were ignorant to Tueller like myself (and, Glenn, let me/us know if this is not a good definition):
The Tueller Drill is the study of the time it takes a person at rest to cover 21 feet and deliver a fatal injury with a knife. The answer depends on the condition of the attacker.

Tests have clocked a fit person accomplishing this task in less than 1.5 seconds. Why is this important? Because it starts getting you thinking about what you can do with your 1.5 seconds to counter the attack. If you cannot draw and hit a stationary target at 21 feet in less than 1.5 seconds, you'll have to have a Plan B. These situations also put you under a certain amount of pressure, and learning how to function under pressure is a good thing.
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source
 
What a coincidence, I just gave a talk to some radiographers yesterday about stab wounds.
Basically, I have seen stab wounds up close. I have seen many. My 'record' is 22 stabs in one night shift, of which only two were stabbed by the same person.

A stabbing is no joke. From a tactical point of view, my advice is to run rather than draw if you are that close to a guy who already has his knife ready. I've got quite a fast draw, and yet the safe distance between me and an assailant is quite large if he has the knife and he is charging. I tried it out with a friend of mine. You need quite a 'closing distance' to draw and place at least two or three shots at a charging assailant.

On the medical side, I have statistics at hand for 1999 when I worked at the Johannesburg Hospital. A total of 2214 adult patients attended the hospital with stab wounds that year. The key thing about stabs is that almost any tool with a point or an edge can cause a stab wound, or any item that can splinter or shatter. And as many previous posters have said, you don't need to be a specialist to inflict a lot of damage with a knife. The guy may not even have a proper knife, but something else that you don't think is that dangerous.
Bottom line: it is all dangerous. I say run whether it is a family member or not. If you can put distance between yourself and your attacker, then you can weigh up your options as regards the use of a gun. If there is a nearby parked car, you can run around that while you draw.

Here is a picture of a stab victim (warning, it is graphic so I'll just provide the link, not embed it here. Don't look if you can't stand blood). I challenge you to tell me what weapon it was. By the way the wound goes all the way down to the ribs. The patient was treated and made a full recovery.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17188&stc=1&d=1138392791
 

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What weapon? You've stumped me, at least. My first thought was a small axe, just from the size, but the cut isn't shaped right for that at all. That is a weird sort of 'C' shape.
 
A small gardening hand shovel? :confused:

I looked closer, there are small serrations or jagged edges to the sliced skin. Almost like it was a sawing motion, or maybe the weapon had an irregular edge.

Who am I kiddin'... ya got me stumped.
 
Personally, I do not feel overly threatened by a charging pissed off person with a knife. Anger clouds your judgement. Plus, if they are charging me, then I would assume they wouldnt stop, at which point their momentum could be used to my advantage. If they did stop, there is a moment of pause in which your brain has to recalculate distance, thus opening yet another window of oportunity. I am quite skilled in hand to hand, so a firearm would be an overreaction for me, personally.
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:rolleyes: :eek:
 
If it is a family member gone wacko I'm disarming them somehow with less than lethal force, even if it means getting cut doing it, I'll pick up a yard rake or a piece of firewood or something. If it's someone I don't know I shoot 'till the slide locks.
 
If its a stranger, back up, get cover, draw gun. Fire only if you are certain that he is coming for you--that is he still pursues when you back up. Could be he is so deranged he doesnt know what he's doing and you could go to jail for killing him--not fair, but there's plenty of CCW haters in the legal system who'd love to convict a gun owner of reckless endangerment, or whatever.

If its my son, god forbid, I'd shoot him myself. (Not sure I could do this....but should somebody else have to shoot him?) If either of my boys gets so messed up that they are attacking people with butcher knives, they better be ready to die. Some things we don't forgive due to the gravity of the harm forgivness could entail. When the kid pops off next and kills some innocent, how could you forgive yourself for not putting the mad dog down when you had the chance? I'd probably shoot myself next.
kiov
 
Another variable i would have to consider before making any decisions is the proximity of other family members. It is unlikely you would have time to think about it in real life but since this is hypathetical why not? Would your response to the son change if he posed a threat to your wife, daughter, other son, whatever if you failed to stop him?


I don't know what i would do in this situation (hope i never find out) but the safety of my family is as if not more important to me than my own safety


Stranger = DEAD
 
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