A Firearms Owner's Guide to Dealing with the Police
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m&p45acp10+1 said:
Thats terrible legal advice.
What to do when you get pulled over FLEX YOUR RIGHTS
Police have no right to search locked compartments with out a warrant, unless you give them permission.
You can give up your constitutional rights and submit to an illegal search if you want to, but I never will.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
Oh I never said they could search without your premission, or obtaining a warrant. I said if you have nothing to hide it will go much smoother to give consent. Yes they must either have consent, a warrant, or viable probable casue.
Well if you do not consent, the officer is well within thier rights to detain you while he is getting a warrant. That can include impounding your vehicle. You will pay the towing fee, and impoundment fee as well. All while handcuffed in the back seat of a squad car.
Becsue you decided "I have the right to make him get a warrant." It is now gonna cost more than an hour in handcuffs, and possibly an impoundment fee.
Failure to consent screams out one of two things.
1. I have something illegal in there.
2. I want to make your job difficult. (Yes you have the right to make them get a warrant. I have the right to walk in public resteraunt and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at. It does not mean it is a good idea to do so.)
Well if you do not consent, the officer is well within thier rights to detain you while he is getting a warrant. That can include impounding your vehicle. You will pay the towing fee, and impoundment fee as well. All while handcuffed in the back seat of a squad car.
Becsue you decided "I have the right to make him get a warrant." It is now gonna cost more than an hour in handcuffs, and possibly an impoundment fee.
Failure to consent screams out one of two things.
1. I have something illegal in there.
2. I want to make your job difficult. (Yes you have the right to make them get a warrant. I have the right to walk in public resteraunt and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at. It does not mean it is a good idea to do so.)
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m&p45acp10+1 said:
Police have no right to detain you because you refuse to consent to a search.
They have no right to search based on 'hunches'.
Refusing to consent to a search CAN NOT be used against you.
Refusing a search request is not an admission of guilt and does not give the officer the legal right to search or detain you. In fact, most avoidable police searches don't occur because police have probable cause. They occur because people get tricked or intimidated into consenting to search requests.
Interesting example that you note whereby exercising of constitutional rights is found to be equivalent to insulting a police officer. That is definitely noteworthy.
Not a good example either. The owner can throw me out for insulting his guests. He would be within his rights to do so. The police do not own the streets.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
"The trouble with attorneys, however, is that they keep regular hours which means things may have to wait until the morning or the weekday while you sit in a cell."
This is why I traded my local criminal defense attorney $10K for his 24/7 cell number (trust me, they all have one). It's called a retainer... it's refundable upon my request, and guarantees that I already am represented should I require it. I consider it a savings account, with the "Interest" paid back to me in peace of mind. I carry as a licensed CCW holder, and I will absolutely use force to defend myself if required. I can also guarantee that after I shoot I'll make two calls: One to my attorney, and one to 911. I'll leave you to guess which one I'll call first.
I would definately tell a responding officer the following:
(1): I was attacked by the person I used force against.
(2): I defended myself (it's damned obvious anyhow)
(3): I am a licenced CCW holder, and my weapon is located "xx" (I guarantee I would not be holding it...)
(4): I'll be happy assist in the investigation, but prudence dictates that I am represented by an attorney before I make any other statement. "You know how lawsuit happy the families of these criminals can be, and I'd just prefer to make sure that I have someone representing me before I say anythng else"
And then shut up.
Sort of sets the tone, and is a way to smooth out the lawyering-up part of the day.
Willie
.
This is why I traded my local criminal defense attorney $10K for his 24/7 cell number (trust me, they all have one). It's called a retainer... it's refundable upon my request, and guarantees that I already am represented should I require it. I consider it a savings account, with the "Interest" paid back to me in peace of mind. I carry as a licensed CCW holder, and I will absolutely use force to defend myself if required. I can also guarantee that after I shoot I'll make two calls: One to my attorney, and one to 911. I'll leave you to guess which one I'll call first.
I would definately tell a responding officer the following:
(1): I was attacked by the person I used force against.
(2): I defended myself (it's damned obvious anyhow)
(3): I am a licenced CCW holder, and my weapon is located "xx" (I guarantee I would not be holding it...)
(4): I'll be happy assist in the investigation, but prudence dictates that I am represented by an attorney before I make any other statement. "You know how lawsuit happy the families of these criminals can be, and I'd just prefer to make sure that I have someone representing me before I say anythng else"
And then shut up.
Sort of sets the tone, and is a way to smooth out the lawyering-up part of the day.
Willie
.
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Whoever stated this...
Uh oh then Who did that? then 
Relief. You smelled it, you dealt it...
I wouldn't be so sure of that lol. Take a look...http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=478_1312733100
Uh oh then Who did that? then Relief. You smelled it, you dealt it...OldMarksman
Staff
That's good advice--unless you intend to claim self defense.
A successful defense of self defense will require evidence, and that evidence may disappear at the scene never to be found again unless the officer is aware of it. Remaining silent can greatly increase that possibility. Pointing out witnesses and evidence before they disappear can mitigate that risk.
That is excellent advice.
This statement is not true. Although it is not an officer's job to help a person defend against an accusation of some criminal act, there are times an officer can and will provide beneficial testimony or information if the defendant was cooperative. This type of information will get back to the prosecutor and may very well influence the prosecutor (and the judge's) decision on how to dispose of the case, i.e: deferment program, outright dismissal, abatement and dismissal, adjudication withheld, etc.
Know your local/state laws (to the best of your ability);
Know the attitudes of your local police at least in the place(es) you spend the most time;
Use the things you've read in this thread as a good guide;
But, don't be a robot - THINK. You will have to make judgment calls based on what you think you may be accused of, the reaction of the officers, and probably 1000 other little things that no one can possibly explain or prepare you for. If you decide that providing as little information as possible before you get an attorney is in your best interest, try your best not to come off as a wise-ass.
CaptainObvious
Moderator
"...if you have nothing to hide it will go much smoother to give consent."
As I said before, the reason why they are talking to you in the first place is they suspect you committed a crime. Therefore, if the police are asking to search your vehicle then most likely they are trying to build probable cause which will lead to an arrest.
The police will not come out and say things like "You are our suspect in a crime." They will not tell you directly their intentions or what evidence they already have or how they came to stop your vehicle. Therefore, you have to be on the defense whenever you have an encounter with the police. When I mean "defense", I do not mean to be impolite or stand-offish. You can protect your rights while being calm and polite. The police are not going to come after you with the Taser if you stand there calmly stating "I do not want my vehicle searched" or "I do not want to answer questions." The judge will not hold it against you if you decided not to allow a search or answer questions at the scene. It is understood these are your rights and there is no punishment for asserting them.
As for whats in your car, who knows whats in your car. There have been cases in the past of drug and gun runners placing contraband into a person's vehicle. The person then drives from Point A to Point B where the smugglers retrieve the contraband. Your teenagers or whoever used your vehicle last may have left behind some contraband like marijuana under the seat or an open container of beer in the back. You might have wondered into hostile firearms territory like NJ or NY where every other thing you do is a felony and whatever they find in your vehicle will be a reason to place you under arrest.
Actually, I just read about this most recent case.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/m...ehind-bars-for-unknowingly-violating-gun-law/
Another firearms owner who had a CCW in another state is caught behind enemy lines in the city of NY. Of course, these matters should be common knowledge nowadays, but if you have lived in Indiana all your life and have not experienced going behind enemy lines then you might not know better. I don't blame anyone for not knowing the many confusing and vague firearms laws which seem to change every 100 miles you drive.
I think I should have added another point to the original post:
If you have to ask someone about checking your firearm, see signs to the effect of "No firearms allowed" or going through a security checkpoint and you are carrying a firearm, rest assured you are already violating the law.
As I said before, the reason why they are talking to you in the first place is they suspect you committed a crime. Therefore, if the police are asking to search your vehicle then most likely they are trying to build probable cause which will lead to an arrest.
The police will not come out and say things like "You are our suspect in a crime." They will not tell you directly their intentions or what evidence they already have or how they came to stop your vehicle. Therefore, you have to be on the defense whenever you have an encounter with the police. When I mean "defense", I do not mean to be impolite or stand-offish. You can protect your rights while being calm and polite. The police are not going to come after you with the Taser if you stand there calmly stating "I do not want my vehicle searched" or "I do not want to answer questions." The judge will not hold it against you if you decided not to allow a search or answer questions at the scene. It is understood these are your rights and there is no punishment for asserting them.
As for whats in your car, who knows whats in your car. There have been cases in the past of drug and gun runners placing contraband into a person's vehicle. The person then drives from Point A to Point B where the smugglers retrieve the contraband. Your teenagers or whoever used your vehicle last may have left behind some contraband like marijuana under the seat or an open container of beer in the back. You might have wondered into hostile firearms territory like NJ or NY where every other thing you do is a felony and whatever they find in your vehicle will be a reason to place you under arrest.
Actually, I just read about this most recent case.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/m...ehind-bars-for-unknowingly-violating-gun-law/
Another firearms owner who had a CCW in another state is caught behind enemy lines in the city of NY. Of course, these matters should be common knowledge nowadays, but if you have lived in Indiana all your life and have not experienced going behind enemy lines then you might not know better. I don't blame anyone for not knowing the many confusing and vague firearms laws which seem to change every 100 miles you drive.
I think I should have added another point to the original post:
If you have to ask someone about checking your firearm, see signs to the effect of "No firearms allowed" or going through a security checkpoint and you are carrying a firearm, rest assured you are already violating the law.
CaptainObvious
Moderator
"Could someone please make a post here about "A firearm owner's guide to obeying the law."
It would be great to one day be able to write a thread detailing exactly how you can obey the law. However, as it is, there are so many confusing vague firearms laws on the books and then it gets even more complex when we cross political boundaries. What is a felony in one state is not a crime at all in a neighboring state. Some states have these laws about taking firearms into a school zone and there are firearms owners who accidentally wonder into these zones with their CCW. etc...
There have been a few documented cases where firearms owners have been arrested even though they carefully researched the law and took great pains to follow it. Brian Aitken had called the NJ State Police and the Department of Homeland Security to get specific advice and guidance on the laws. It seemed clear that he had absolutely no intent on violating the law. Despite his research, he still found himself in a jail cell wondering how he got there.
The reason why I authored this thread was to create discussion on the issue and make folks think. We have to make sure we know our rights in these matters. I sure do not want to see another Brian Aitken or Harold Fish incident and I think those situations could have been avoided if those individuals had handled things differently.
It would be great to one day be able to write a thread detailing exactly how you can obey the law. However, as it is, there are so many confusing vague firearms laws on the books and then it gets even more complex when we cross political boundaries. What is a felony in one state is not a crime at all in a neighboring state. Some states have these laws about taking firearms into a school zone and there are firearms owners who accidentally wonder into these zones with their CCW. etc...
There have been a few documented cases where firearms owners have been arrested even though they carefully researched the law and took great pains to follow it. Brian Aitken had called the NJ State Police and the Department of Homeland Security to get specific advice and guidance on the laws. It seemed clear that he had absolutely no intent on violating the law. Despite his research, he still found himself in a jail cell wondering how he got there.
The reason why I authored this thread was to create discussion on the issue and make folks think. We have to make sure we know our rights in these matters. I sure do not want to see another Brian Aitken or Harold Fish incident and I think those situations could have been avoided if those individuals had handled things differently.
zincwarrior
New member
I didn’t say they were the enemy. The job of police is to protect society. If, in the instance of this thread, you are under suspicion of a crime, then the police are most definitely not there to help you. You are under suspicion like “murderers, robbers, and rapists” just noted. I wouldn’t expect, and indeed trust, that the police will treat you like a suspect. After all, they may be right.
I don’t know what the rest of that was.
Conn. Trooper
New member
I have never willy nilly asked someone to search their car just as a general rule. If I have probable cause, I search. If I don't, away they go. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.
If you defend yourself I would give the police the facts of what happened, you don't have to incriminate yourself, but you can say " He attacked me, I defended myself." He had a weapon, etc. That gives responding officers things to look for, like witnesses, weapons, video surveillance, etc., that backs your side of the story. Rocks and bottles are in every 7-11 parking lot in the world, if someone tried to hit you with one, say so. Otherwise, it could vanish while waiting for your attorney.
Believe it or not, cops want to get the story straight and sorted out, and grab the right bad guy. Help them if the bad guy is the other guy.
If you defend yourself I would give the police the facts of what happened, you don't have to incriminate yourself, but you can say " He attacked me, I defended myself." He had a weapon, etc. That gives responding officers things to look for, like witnesses, weapons, video surveillance, etc., that backs your side of the story. Rocks and bottles are in every 7-11 parking lot in the world, if someone tried to hit you with one, say so. Otherwise, it could vanish while waiting for your attorney.
Believe it or not, cops want to get the story straight and sorted out, and grab the right bad guy. Help them if the bad guy is the other guy.
I want to re-iterate what OldMarksman said
I would love to know how often a self defense claim that is made immediately to the poice is successful, compared to a self defense claim that is made after the fact... after being arrested and speaking with a lawyer.
DasGuy tried to make this point... but the proponents of the "remain silent" approach ignored him...
I would love to know how often a self defense claim that is made immediately to the poice is successful, compared to a self defense claim that is made after the fact... after being arrested and speaking with a lawyer.
DasGuy tried to make this point... but the proponents of the "remain silent" approach ignored him...
I was personally the subject of a "willy nilly" search, so I know that they do happen. My situation was this: I was traveling between Orlando FL and Gainesville FL at night with my girlfriend. No drugs, no drinking or anything like that. A state trooper stopped me for going 61 in a 55 (yes, back when it was 55mph). I was made to sit in the officer's car for about 45 minutes while they called out the unit with the drug dogs to sniff around my car, search my car. FWIW, I had short hair, was nicely dressed, and the car I was driving was an Mercury sedan. Obviously they found nothing - there was nothing to find.
So, bad stops and bad searches do happen. In cases of truly bad stops and searches (like mine) they don't find anything and they know nobody will ever pursue them on it.
Bro, I got a day job and can't answer internet posts all day.
The question is total BS though. The poster is eliminating upfront most of the causes for wrongful conviction and prosecution. This is a false argument. Those are exactly the reasons (mis-identification, lying witnesses, corrupt police officers and prosecutors, faulty evidence, etc.) why you need to be careful and not say much of anything or consent to be violated. You put those outliers into play and you telling your truthful story will get you locked up. Happens every single day. There are lots of other ways it can happen as well (but he did put "etc" on there I guess in hopes of eliminating every single cause of wrongful prosecution
).Most often, but not always. I don't carry for the 99.9% of the people who don't wish me harm. I carry for the .1% who would be just as happy to see me dead in a ditch somewhere.
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