A Firearms Owner's Guide to Dealing with the Police

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Is it really that scary to folks to deal with police?

Depends on the situation, If it's just a simple traffic stop, no problem.

If it is the aftermath of a self defense encounter, then it can be very scary indeed. What I say, or do, can, and will be used against me. I am not a Lawyer so, I would like someone who is more competent in such matters to advise me in such a potentially ambiguous situation.

Stop worrying about the police...lol The police should be the least of your problems.

Unfortunately, anywhere outside Mayberry , that's not the case.

99 and 9/10ths of all cops are on your side.

I don't like those odds... and;

The police are allowed to lie to us, but we are not allowed to lie to them.

They also can and do use intimidation, and they're very good at it

Yup.
 
I have to say that I really like BDS32's perspective on this!

However, I also appreciate much of what Captain Obvious stated. I really think you can subscribe to both of these bits of advice. Good points made by both (IMHO), which are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
 
I have a little printout in my wallet. It says this:

MACE-SAW

M- Medical attention- ask for it whether you think you need it or not
A- Attacker- identify the attackers
C- Criminal complaint- offer to sign one
E- Evidence- point out any that may be overlooked

S- Searches- do not consent to any
A- Attorney- you wish to make no further statements without one
W- Witnesses- point out any to responding police

I think this boils a lot of the info in this thread down in a good, simple manner.
 
AH.74 said:
...Medical attention- ask for it whether you think you need it or not...
Not a good idea. Asking for medical attention without a good faith belief that it is necessary can severely damage your credibility. (And of course, the police will no doubt find that card on which you remind yourself ask for medical attention whether you need it or not.)
 
"However in a routine traffic stop I see no reason to be so stand offish. "

Exactly. Cops have a high enough stress level without pulling over some guy for a broken tail light and then putting up with a bunch of "I'm not speaking until I have an attorney" nonsense. Just be freaking polite, he's just doing his job.
 
Exactly. Cops have a high enough stress level without pulling over some guy for a broken tail light and then putting up with a bunch of "I'm not speaking until I have an attorney" nonsense. Just be freaking polite, he's just doing his job.

His job is not to help you. His job does not trump your fundamental rights. Further, you can be polite AND STILL protect those rights.
 
Difference between sd and routine stop

Ok I can see the different angle here but still. I figure that if I ever truly need a firearm in a SD situation I will be shaken up, uneasy, possibly actually in need of medical attention etc.

I would think it would only be propper to give a statment of generalities to help the responding officers understand what they are dealing with. They are going to want to secure the area and they are surley going to want to know if anyone is at large.

Making no statment at all without a lawyer kindof gets in the way here doesn't it?
 
I don't understand the whole "never say anything to the police".

Say you're in some convience store and the only other person in there is the clerk. Say some bad guy comes in and murders the clerk. You're able to get your firearm out and defend yourself without getting killed; bad guy dies in the process. When the police show up, there's 3 people in the store, 2 of which are dead and the only non dead person has a gun and refuses to talk.

I don't know about the rest of you; but I'd rather have the police on my side from the start and cooperate, to an extent. I'd just give the basics. Something like "That guy came into the store and murdered the clerk. I had to shoot him to defend my life. I'm really emotionally stressed right now, so I'm having a hard time dealing with what just happened and I can't really go into all of the details right now". That way the police at least have some idea of what happened and you're not risking giving out any incorrect info that could be used against you later.

Here's another scenario:

You're walking down the street and some bad guy pulls a knife on you and threatens your life. You make distance, get your gun out and shoot him. He is alive when the police get there. He tells them that all he was doing was waiting around for his Grandma so he could walk her across the street when suddenly, this crazy gun nut (you) pulled a gun on him and shot him for no reason at all. You sit there only saying "I want my lawyer". Who do you think the police will believe?
 
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Dasguy said:
"I don't understand the whole "never say anything to the police"."

When you say something, anything, to the police then it becomes permanent record which later on you or your attorney will have to defend. So to avoid your words becoming permanent record you don't say anything at all. Also, emotions, body language, etc. will become part of the permanent record. The officer may mention how you were fidgeting, moving, becoming emotional, erratic etc. in a report or it may be recorded on video. You or your attorney will have to explain this body language to a judge or jury as well.

When the police show up, they have to have probable cause to make an arrest. Here is a simple example that is easy to understand. Before an officer can make an arrest for a DUI and put you on the official breathalyzer at their police station in my state, they need to have probable cause. To develop that probable cause, they will ask a series of questions such as "Have you been drinking?" and then ask you to submit to certain field sobriety tests. In my state, the driver does not have to answer that question or submit to the field sobriety tests. The officer, however, does not tell the driver that answering these questions and taking those tests are optional. The only thing that is not optional is the breathalyzer at the police station...the handheld breathalyzer is optional in my state. I have known quite a few people who knew the law and refused to answer any questions or take these optional tests and their arrests were invalidated.

Your defense starts when the police show up. It was talked about earlier in this thread about legal qualifications and thats a good point. You are not qualified to make decisions on what should be said to the police. Only a licensed attorney with specific criminal court experience or the public defender is qualified to make these types of decisions. If you decide to defend yourself and start making statements, then you are putting your life in your own hands. Imagine being placed in a jail or prison cell like Brian or Harold.

The police are not bad people and some you may even want to be friends with on the side. However, they have their instructions on what to do and, these days, most everything they do is on video or audio which can easily be scrutinized by their superiors later on. Therefore, they are going to follow their training and instructions. In this modern age of video and audio, their discretion is limited. You have no idea what statements made to the police will compound the situation. On the other hand, the police know which statements will compound your situation and it is not their job to tell you which statements will make it worse.

If you just shot someone, pulled a firearm on someone or committed any kind of battery or assault or any other crime where you might spend one day in jail for, then your best bet is not to say anything at all. Stand there quietly, peacefully, and tell the officer "I wish to remain silent". Do not launch into explanations of what happened. Get yourself an attorney immediately or work with the public defender, but do not make any statements or answer questions.

If you have to spend a night or so in jail then so be it. If you have been out on a hunting or camping trip then you will probably have stayed in lesser accomodations. Dont be scared to spend a night in jail. Just know that whatever you say at that moment can and probably will be used against you. You might feel a little unsocial about not saying anything or you might feel you are disrespecting the officer by not helping them complete their report on this matter. Don't worry about that. Think of yourself. The officer is going to go home at the end of their shift to their family and that report they write is just another thing they are paid to do. On the other hand, your freedom is at stake in these matters and you are not qualified to speak to the police.

In the situation above with the store which was robbed and you just shot someone. I would tell the police "I wish to remain silent and want to talk to an attorney." Hand them your license or identification and don't say anything more. Launching into an explanation about how stressed you are is not advisable. A Detective or experienced officer will probably thoroughly investigate the crime scene. They can talk to your attorney about the situation in the days to come and then they can complete their report on the matter at that time.

It is not the officer's job to believe someone. It is the judge or jury's job to believe someone and make a judgement. Do not worry about how guilty you might look if you immediately tell them you want an attorney. The fact that you desired an attorney immediately cannot be used against you in court. That is your right.
 
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interacting with the police after you are involved in a shooting incident

You're certainly better off to make a brief statement to the police after any self defense incident you're in. Give the first responding officers a brief synopsis, so they can get on with the investigation. If you decide to make a short statement to the police, make it to a supervisor or the case detective. You don't want to make multiple statements. One will do fine.

Police officers are trained to make a brief factual statement after any shooting incident they're involved in. It is often referred to as a "public safety statement" and deals only with the relevant information needed to deal with the incident and to protect the scene. Such as, how many suspects were there? How were they dressed? If some escaped, which way did they go? Are there any witnesses around? Are there items of evidence around that need to be protected and recovered? Does anybody need medical attention?

You don't have to give them your life story and you probably won't be able to remember all the details about the incident, so DO NOT try to go into great detail. But a brief statement is probably in your best interests. You have to survive the initial incident, and then you have to survive the investigation, and then you have to survive any potential civil litigation.

If you respond to the police in the same way that they are trained to do when involved in a self-defense shooting, it may help them reach an understanding that you were indeed acting appropriately under the circumstances. If you lie to a cop, or try to hide something from a cop, or if they perceive that you are trying to hide something, they respond like sharks do when they smell blood in the water . . . you do NOT want that to happen to you. Nor do you want to talk too much, nor make multiple statements about what happened to multiple investigators. The more you think this stuff through in advance, the better off you will be.

You should locate an attorney locally who has some expertise and understanding of self-defense issues, and talk to him soon. Get an understanding of how the law works in YOUR STATE and also what the actual "prosecutorial climate" is toward self-defense incidents is in YOUR LOCATION. Find out who the local police union uses as legal counsel for officers involved in a self-defense shooting.

Remember, most cops and most prosecutors (and most defense attorneys) don't have that much experience investigating legitimate self defense shootings, because they don't happen all that often in most jurisdictions. So you need to do some research ahead of time.

IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME by Massad Ayoob remains the standard work on the legal issues of self defense. It was written in 1980 and needs to be updated, but most of the legal information in there is still valid.

How much do you tell the police after you are involved in a self-defense shooting? A lot depends on how the self-defense issue is addressed in the laws of YOUR STATE. (look your laws up. Don't depend on somebody to tell you what they are, or what they think they are. look them up yourself. Depending upon how the statutes are organized, sometimes it's hard to find them on the web, and you may have to go look at the hard copy of the statutes down at the public library)

Where I live (Wisconsin), there is no "right" to self defense in the statutes -- self defense is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE, where basically you are saying "Yes, I shot the guy in self defense AND THIS IS WHY." (Our statutes use the term "privilege" to define instances where otherwise unlawful acts are justified; such as the use of force in self defense) If there are witnesses that can support your actions, or evidence that would prove that events happened the way you said they did, YOU need to point this stuff out to officer friendly when he gets there. DO NOT presume that the cops will find this stuff on their own. Most cops, even detectives, do not investigate legitimate self-defense shootings very often. This means they may overlook evidence that is beneficial to your case. This may also mean that they mis-interpret events, because they're NOT familiar with this kind of investigation.

Don't misconstrue the suggestion that you should make a statement to the police to mean that you need to make a detailed statement at the scene of the incident. That is probably NOT a good idea.

What you need to do is sometimes referred to as a "public safety statement" -- that's what cops are often required to give at the scene of an incident they are involved in. It would be simple -- something like "I was gassing my car up and a guy appeared out of the darkness with a knife and he tried to rob me and he threatened me with the knife and began to advance and my escape route was cut off and I was in fear for my life and I shot at him to defend myself." Just a simple explanation of the incident. Don't go into great detail at the time, because you'll probably be too upset. Wait until you have counsel before you make a DETAILED statement, but tell the investigating officers SOMETHING -- a brief synopsis of events.

You will be handling it the same way that most police unions tell their officers to respond in such an investigation -- a brief description of events, followed by "I prefer not to make any more statements until I've had the advice of counsel".

Of course, all situations are different. And I don't know how the police and prosecutors handle incidents like this where you live. To make a determination about the "prosecutorial climate" in your locale, DON'T depend on anything written in the newspaper. Articles in the newspaper or features on television are not (generally) prepared by people who know anything about the law or tactics or much of anything else. They're just newspaper or TV reporters, NOT subject matter experts about anything. Most of the stuff you read in the papers has significant errors in it, not because the news media are participants in some vast conspiracy, but because THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE WRITING ABOUT. So don't depend on the media to get the facts straight on anything.

And don't depend on advice you hear from some gunshop commando or some guy you ran into at the gun show. A regular general practice attorney probably won't be of much use as a reference, either. You'll need to talk to somebody who specializes in this kind of criminal defense. And DON'T depend on advice from the cop who lives down your street. Absent specialized training, they won't know either! They may (or may not) be familiar with the policy of their police department, and how the police union advises them to act after being involved in an incident, but they probably WILL NOT have good advice for the private citizen in a similar situation.

(It seems that people who have a few seconds to realize that they're in danger can usually maintain better mental track during the incident than those caught totally by surprise. And if you are wounded or sustain a significant injury, you are in no position to be talking at all.)

Remember, ANY STATEMENT YOU MAKE TO THE POLICE CAN BE USED AS EVIDENCE. The police only have to inform you of your privilege against testimonial self incrimination during a custodial arrest. There is a common misconception that "it doesn't count" if you have not provided and signed some kind of written statement, and this is incorrect.

When you make this brief statement, make it to the sergeant or the investigator who will be the primary investigator on the case. Don't explain to just any uniformed cop who happens by, because they may not be primary on the incident. And only give your statement once. The more you repeat it, the more likely it is that there will be inconsistencies, caused by the stress of the situation.

If you aren't sure that you can make a statement and then stop talking, then it might be best to say very little at all.

Always remember: Most police seldom if ever investigate a legitimate self-defense shooting incident. If you are uncooperative, it makes it that much harder for them to figure out what actually happened. Innocent people usually DO NOT invoke their rights against testimonial self incrimination -- they can't wait to tell the investigating officers all about what happened BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Right or wrong, cops equate "silence" with "guilt". You can rant and rave all you want about your "rights" but the first right you have is to be responsible for your actions!

That being said be careful what you say, but it's best that you give them a little bit of information so they can start the investigation, and then ask for your lawyer. If there is evidence or witnesses that can verify your side of the story, the police need to know that. You can't assume they're just going to magically figure it out for themselves. If you want to avoid a great deal of trouble, you're going to have to cooperate with the investigation in a limited and careful way. But be very careful what you say!

Just remember not to over-think this stuff: Your actions will be evaluated based on the information known to you at the time of the incident. Your perception of threat. Your perception of tactical options. Your decisions will be compared to those of a "reasonable man" under the same circumstances

Some of the instructors who primarily train the armed private citizen (like John Farnam & Massad Ayoob) always suggest that you find an attorney in your area (if possible) who specializes in defending private citizens in self defense cases, and at least pay to talk to them for an hour or two and get their interpretation of the law in your state and the "judicial climate" in your locality -- how police & prosecutors proceed in these kind of investigations, how the process works, what political issues may be at play, and etc. That's pretty good advice, with the qualifier that, in many locations, it'll be pretty hard to find an attorney with trial experience in this unusual area, because in most places there just aren't that many true self-defense shootings. A regular general practice attorney probably won't have any specialized training or experience in this area, and they may not know that they don't know, so it's always possible that you may get some bad advice.

You might want to consider talking to the counsel for the local police officer's union or association -- it's quite possible that the local police union attorney has had some specialized training in this area, or can point you in the direction of somebody who does have such training

Read your state statutes to see how the whole topic of "self defense" is addressed -- in common law states, it may not be mentioned in the statutes at all. In other states, statutes may define the circumstances under which a citizen can use force to defend life or property [In my home state, Wisconsin, it's defined by statute as "privilege" and defined thusly: "The fact that the actor's conduct is privileged, although otherwise criminal, is a defense to prosecution for any crime based on that conduct. The defense of privilege can be claimed under any of the following circumstances (2.) When the actor's conduct is in defense of persons or property under any of the circumstances described in 939.48 (Self-Defense and the Defense of others) or 939.49 ((Defense of Property)].

In most cases, as a citizen who uses force in self defense, the way to approach this is EXACTLY the way it's approached when a law enforcement officer uses force in self defense: the affirmative defense: Yes, I used force to defend myself, and this is why I am justified in doing what I did

Should you have the misfortune to be involved in a self-defense shooting, the issue is NOT in taking responsibility and explaining your actions to the first responding officers or to investigators. What you need to avoid is making statements "in the heat of the moment" that are confusing, or not what you meant to say, or not an accurate recitation of the facts as you perceived them. The stress of a deadly force encounter can cause the mind to work in strange ways.

So don't make any detailed statements until after you've talked to counsel. But yes, you should tell the cops a few things:

INTERACTION WITH THE FIRST RESPONDING POLICE OFFICERS
(1.) When they arrive, do exactly as they say. If they tell you to put your gun down, then put it down. If they handcuff you, don't resist. Self defense situations are very chaotic, and the average officer does not go to many incidents involving a legitimate display or delivery of force by a law-abiding citizen, so it may take them quite a while to figure out what's going on.
(2.) What do you tell the cops?
-- "This man tried to attack me"
-- "The evidence is here"
-- "The witnesses are here"
-- "I will sign the complaint"
-- "I will cooperate with the prosecution"
-- "I will cooperate with the investigation, but I'm kind of upset right now."
-- I will cooperate with the investigation and make a full statement after I've had time to gather my thoughts and speak to my attorney."
(3.) You need to give enough of a statement so that the police have an idea about what happened. In particular, they need to know who potential witnesses are and where relevant physical evidence might be located. At the scene, they need enough information to begin the investigation and properly manage the crime scene. Remember, the police equate silence with guilt! The only people who utilize the "right to remain silent" are those with something to hide, so a carefully worded statement is probably in your best interest.
 
It's a free country and you get to exercise your rights.

I would only add that, if you have a security clearance, or would like to get one, an arrest record, even if favorably adjudicated, can bring it all to an unpleasant end, or take so much time to adjudicate that you wish it would end.

Jeff22 makes a lot of good points.
 
Does anyone have any documented cases of a person shooting in self defense and going with the "right to remain silent" approach? I always see it talked about; but I have yet to see it actually put in to practice and what eventually happens to the shooter.

I've heard about a few cases of people's cooperation working against them; but how does that compare to the total number of SD shootings where people cooperate? Do all of these SD shootings "gone wrong" make national media? I've read plenty of defense stories in "American Rifleman" that turn out well for the victims. How many of them talked to the police?
 
His job is not to help you.

I guess keeping the peace and enforcing the law is not designed to help you. How is that murderers, robbers, and rapists end up in a jail cell? I can tell you first hand that the fairy godmother doesn't put them there. Trained men and women do. They do it by seeking the truth in the encounters they engage in. In order to get the truth, they rely on the statements of citizens so that those statements can be compared to the available evidence. There is a reason that we get to walk around in relative peace, in most places in this nation. It is not because of the good will of all mankind. I agree that you should think about your circumstances and be careful about what you say to police because not all police officers have the best of intentions. Weigh your options and use your rights based on your culpability and conscience. However, there is nothing wrong with looking the man in the eye and telling him the absolute truth, particularly when you have done nothing unreasonable by anyone's interpretation. The police are not the enemy as many lawyers would have you believe.
 
However, there is nothing wrong with looking the man in the eye and telling him the absolute truth, particularly when you have done nothing unreasonable by anyone's interpretation.

How many citations do you want me to post of people who have done exactly that and either gone to prison or had their lives made a a living hell for doing nothing illegal? Just name a number (keeping in mind bandwidth limitations).
 
I have a lot of friends, and family members that are either LEO, or retired LEO. All will say the same things.

1 Be courteous. Do not argue, and awnser the simple questions. If you are being pulled over because you were speeding, do not show how much of an idiot you actualy are with comments like, "I refuse to awnser questions." "I will need to consult with my attorney." Statememnts like this say to an officer "I think I am smarter than you, and I am going to act like a jerk. I am going to try to cause the biggest scene, and start screaming lawsuit. "

2. Regardless of if you think they can or not. An LEO can frisk you. Refuse this and you are truly at thier mercy. You will be going to jail. If you fight them kiss your right to own guns good bye. You commited a felony. If taken before a jury you will be found guilty.

3. If they ask if they can search your vehicle. It is better to consent if you have nothing to hide, and nothing illegal in your vehicle. If you refuse to they can handcuff you, put you in the back of thier car, and wait for a magistrate to come, and sign a warrant to search if they believe there to be probable cause. Even if they do not find anything you are still cuffed in the back of a squad car. They can do it, and will not be able to do a thing about it.

4 Common sense prevents a lot of problems.
 
Yes, I would be interested to know about completely innocent persons who spoke to a police officer and went to prison soley for the reason that they spoke the absolute truth, without regard to any other circumstance in the case such as the actual facts of the investigation (including misidentifications, lying witnesses, corrupt police officers and prosecutors, faulty evidence, etc.) I can be persuaded.
 
Simple questions, simple answers:

- Do you know why I pulled you over?

Answer: "No."

Reasoning: Because you do not, as you are not a mind reader. Even if you were going 110 mph he might have pulled you over for a tail light. Tell him you were going 110 and he will write you a ticket.

- Where are you going today?

Answer: Could be a lot of places. Be consistent however with a single answer 1-3 word answer. He may ask you again or make reference to it later.

You get the idea.
 
Let me make a clarification as I see my words were not quoted in context. It is not the officer's job to help you with your case or your defense. They may help you in other ways, but they will not help you with your case or defense. The prosecutor or the judge will also not help you either.

Officers will most certainly get fired if they tell a lie. There are rare cases where officers do tell lies, but those who do are soon exposed, charged and fired. So if an officer is approaching you then they did see or hear something or maybe something was reported to them. When they approach you, they will be doing so as an official representative of the people and the state. It will be all business and they will not help you in the defense. They will not tell you what is optional or what is mandatory. For example, they wont tell you that you dont have to answer their questions. They may politely say "Can I do a check of your vehicle?" What they wont say is "Will you waive your rights and let me search your vehicle?"

If the red lights are on behind you or you find yourself in front of an officer with lots of questions, then you will find out sooner or later they might be building probable cause to give you at least a citation or at worse a felony arrest.

So you have to remember when an officer approaches, they mean business and they do so as a representative of the people/state. You have to treat this encounter in a business manner and handle it as professionally as they are handling it. The professional manner of handling such things is to let your attorney do the talking. The trouble with attorneys, however, is that they keep regular hours which means things may have to wait until the morning or the weekday while you sit in a cell. If you have to sit in a cell or if the officer can't finish their report for a few days, then so be it. The person or persons who will make the final determination is the judge or jury. They are the people that really count in these situations. One wrong statement or action can mean the difference between freedom and several years in prison.
 
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