A Father/Daughter talk

Who is to tsay they are doing them wrong? If it's their community and it works for the contributing members of that community, how can it be wrong?
Many communities over the centuries have done many things wrong that were quite acceptable to the majority of the population but very, very bad for others.

And I'm not even saying they're doing them wrong, merely that one example of one community does not translate to every community.
 
Many communities over the centuries have done many things wrong that were quite acceptable to the majority of the population but very, very bad for others.

And I'm not even saying they're doing them wrong, merely that one example of one community does not translate to every community.

I'm referring to social programs. Nothing else.
 
I'm referring to social programs. Nothing else.
I know and I see that as part of the problem with the issue. There are many people who consider social programs as essential as national defense.

The point is that there are programs you like that I don't like. There are programs I like that you don't like. There are programs that others like that you and I both dislike. But everyone is willing to have the government to take from the people for things they agree with but draw the line as things they don't agree with.
I usually think you are FOS. But, I like that.
lolol thanks :p

On a personal note, I would support putting every penny currently used for social programs into equal parts space and deep sea exploration. :D
 
But everyone is willing to have the government to take from the people for things they agree with but draw the line as things they don't agree with.
Not everyone. I want the government to limit itself to what is in the Constitution. For instance, whether I agree on a particular military mission or not, it is the perview of the federal government. On the other hand, a few years ago there was a state initiative that I thought was a good idea to do. I even may have eventually benefited from it. I voted against it because I thought that it was not the governments job to do it.

If you want the federal government to provide these programs, then get the Constitution amended. Otherwise, it is wrong for the feds to be doing them, whether people feel it is right or not.

Alternatively, they can find a country that provides these programs without having to change the counry's foundations.
 
redworm said:
Oh I don't know, maybe being a member of the same species? Maybe the idea that we're only out for each other is a primitive and backwards way to look at the world, that "rugged individualism" is just an excuse to further social darwinism. Maybe that as a developed nation we should be able to help our least fortunate because it's the right thing to do.

Or maybe I actually agree with you guys to a point and I'm only trying to remind y'all to be reasonable with your arguments so you don't do more harm than good to the position.

My sentiments exactly... I believe in helping those less fortunate, but not in handouts to those who are capable, but too damn lazy to work. Now the problem becomes seperating those who truely deserve help from those looking for handouts. :rolleyes::barf:
 
I want the government to limit itself to what is in the Constitution.
Y'know you're enjoying the benefits of the government going outside the Constitution at this very moment by posting on an internet it had no authority to spend money on, right? :p

But that's not really the point. You're still supporting the government spending everyone else's money on things that you think it should be spending money on. Just because your justification is that it's in the Constitution doesn't change that. The point is that some people believe the government should have the authority to spend our money on other things.

If you want the federal government to provide these programs, then get the Constitution amended.
I agree.

Alternatively, they can find a country that provides these programs without having to change the counry's foundations.
I'm sorry but that is a lousy argument. You cannot expect people who don't have enough money to put a roof over their heads to emigrate because that costs money.

Nor is it right to expect people to leave their home country because you don't agree with their views. The foundations of this country included not allowing women to vote, basing laws on religious ideals and owning slaves so there are quite a number of foundations that have had to change along with an evolving society.
 
My sentiments exactly... I believe in helping those less fortunate, but not in handouts to those who are capable, but too damn lazy to work. Now the problem becomes seperating those who truely deserve help from those looking for handouts.
I agree. However it must be reiterated that laziness is not purely genetic. While an adult should certainly take responsibility for his own actions if that adult spend the first seventeen years of his life with bad influences from his parents learning nothing but how to be lazy and unmotivated then simply claiming he's too damned lazy to work is not really fair. It's not his fault his parents raised him like crap.

Y'all need to realize that environmental influences - many of them stemming from social class - have a strong impact on one's willingness to work. I'm not excusing laziness but it shouldn't be vilified, either. There's a reason for it and a person cannot be held entirely responsible for how his parents raised him.


edit: to clarify: I don't support handouts to those who can work. I do support giving them the proper education and opportunity to work and having the patience to understand that lousy parents can have a negative impact on one's willingness to work. I'm not suggesting infinite patience but giving up too quickly can cause more harm than good to society overall.
 
know and I see that as part of the problem with the issue. There are many people who consider social programs as essential as national defense.

Sorry but giving a check to a "lady" with 4 kids from 3 different men in no way provides for national security; it re-enforces her idea that she's entitled to something for nothing.

The point is that there are programs you like that I don't like. There are programs I like that you don't like. There are programs that others like that you and I both dislike. But everyone is willing to have the government to take from the people for things they agree with but draw the line as things they don't agree with.

We all know that you can't make everyone happy. However, providing for national security rather than mama who leeches on the backs of others should be a no brainer.
 
There we go with another problem. You're equating everyone on these programs to single mothers with kids from different fathers. How the hell do you know who fathered some single mom's kids? Why not put the responsibility on the guy that ran out on her? Why not consider the fact that maybe he's dead. Why even assume that single mothers are a significant source of the problem? And why do you ignore the fact that such assistance is primarily for the kids, not for the single mother herself.

For y'all to keep complaining about single moms and crackwhores leeching from the system makes about as much sense as someone complaining that all the buck toothed rednecks refuse to give up their guns so they can shoot each other for 'possum stew.

And you're still not getting it. There are many who believe that providing for the unfortunate is as important - if not more important - than giving the Navy yet another unnecessary aircraft carrier or putting yet another spy satellite in orbit or building yet another hundred Abrams or Longbows.

You say it should be a no-brainer but it can just as easily be turned around and said that helping our least fortunate rather than giving our military bigger and better penile substitutes should be a no-brainer.
 
The foundations of this country included
I am afraid that you misunderstood me. I was not referring to the founding of the country, but of the current foundation for how are government should work, which is the Constitution as it is currently amended. (Those amendments seem to have fixed the majority of the problems you listed.)
The current foundation does not allow for slavery (at least actual ownership of other people), and it does allow for women to vote. Also, laws that have a strictly religious basis and violate the constitution tend to ultimately get shot down by the Supreme Court, if they get that far.

And the current foundation allows for change in the foundation, but you seem to favor violating that process. I wasn't saying those that need help should look to going to another country, but those that want to violate the process for changing our constitution, which seems to not only include the "poor".
 
I seem to be in favor of violating that process even though when you said
If you want the federal government to provide these programs, then get the Constitution amended.
I replied with
okie dokie
I wasn't saying those that need help should look to going to another country, but those that want to violate the process for changing our constitution, which seems to not only include the "poor".
Which still makes absolutely no sense considering if the only people that want to help those poor leave the country they'll be left here with no one but the evil, greedy, thumping Republicans (:eek: o no!) to kick them into the gutters. But I guess it's worth it to have those evil, greedy, commie Democrats find some other place to live.
 
There we go with another problem. You're equating everyone on these programs to single mothers with kids from different fathers. How the hell do you know who fathered some single mom's kids? Why not put the responsibility on the guy that ran out on her? Why not consider the fact that maybe he's dead. Why even assume that single mothers are a significant source of the problem? And why do you ignore the fact that such assistance is primarily for the kids, not for the single mother herself.

I'm equating it to what my wife has encountered as a cop and what I encounter with every trip to Wal-Mart. I agree, put the responsibility on the fathers. In the mean time, take the responsibility off of the responsible people who actually are forced to provide for those who are making poor choices.

And you're still not getting it. There are many who believe that providing for the unfortunate is as important - if not more important - than giving the Navy yet another unnecessary aircraft carrier or putting yet another spy satellite in orbit or building yet another hundred Abrams or Longbows.

I get it. The first called socialism/wealth re-distribution. The second is called national defense. One is provided for in the constitution, can you tell me which one?

You say it should be a no-brainer but it can just as easily be turned around and said that helping our least fortunate rather than giving our military bigger and better penile substitutes should be a no-brainer.

Except that bigger and better penile substiutes are covered in the constitution. I've read it a couple of times and never saw anything about bigger and better welfare programs:p
 
Sorry, I missed that.
So, I guess there is nothing more to discuss. We agree that under the constitution as it currently stands, the federal government should NOT be providing social progams.

Thank you
 
Which still makes absolutely no sense considering if the only people that want to help those poor leave the country they'll be left here with no one but the evil, greedy, thumping Republicans ( o no!) to kick them into the gutters. But I guess it's worth it to have those evil, greedy, commie Democrats find some other place to live.
Now you're getting just plain silly.
I'm not saying the poor shouldn't be helped, just that it is NOT the governments job to do so. On that note, may I refer you to:
"Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism" by Arthur C. Brooks?
A quote from the synopsis on http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780465008216&itm=1
"Surprising proof that conservatives really are more compassionate--and more generous--than liberals."
 
I'm equating it to what my wife has encountered as a cop and what I encounter with every trip to Wal-Mart. I agree, put the responsibility on the fathers. In the mean time, take the responsibility off of the responsible people who actually are forced to provide for those who are making poor choices.
Again, what your wife encounters on the job and what you encounter....dude, are you seriously using Wal-Mart to further your argument? Because if so that place can be used by anti-gunners a hell of a lot more effectively because I see some pretty retarded rednecks every time I go there that I wouldn't trust with a nail file let alone a firearm.

But your experiences still don't define the reality of the situation. You don't know who has made poor choices. And don't tell me that you've made nothing but good choices your whole life and that you haven't been saved by luck a few times. Don't tell me that there haven't been times when a stupid decision on your part couldn't have ruined your life if you'd also been unlucky at that point because damn near everyone has had times like that. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone screws up. Some people are just luckier than others, more fortunate than others and have better support networks or were raised better.

How exactly does one put the responsibility on the fathers when they skip town and are never heard from again? Or when they can work under the table and not pay a dime in child support for a year before even being threatened with jail time?

You're still assuming that single mothers are a significant sources of these problems. And you're still ignoring the fact that it's the kids that are being assisted and they are not to blame for the mistakes of their parents.
I get it. The first called socialism/wealth re-distribution. The second is called national defense. One is provided for in the constitution, can you tell me which one?
No, it's not. Socialism is not some evil nasty entity. And no, spending unnecessary hundreds of billions on nation building and national offense is not national defense. Far from it.
Except that bigger and better penile substiutes are covered in the constitution. I've read it a couple of times and never saw anything about bigger and better welfare programs
You guys really need to come up with a better argument than simply pointing to the constitution. If that's the best you have you'll never be able to defend this argument to people that actually give a hoot about shutting you down.

Just because it's in the constitution does not make it right. The framers were not omniscient, they weren't perfect. They made a lot of bad decisions and they had a lot of stupid ideas in addition to their wise ones.

I agree that such programs should be in line with the constitution but saying that it's not in there is not an argument against the validity of such programs, it's merely an argument that the constitution requires amending for those programs.

By the way, how do you enjoy all the benefits derived from violating the constitution? Where's the constitutional authority for NASA that is largely responsible for many of the medical technologies that will keep you alive for a few more decades? Where's the constitutional authority for the war on drugs that keeps violent, deadly potheads off your lawn?
 
Sorry, I missed that.
So, I guess there is nothing more to discuss. We agree that under the constitution as it currently stands, the federal government should NOT be providing social progams.

Thank you
Take it to the next step and realize that many believe the constitution ought to be amended to allow for such programs.
 
Now you're getting just plain silly.
I'm not saying the poor shouldn't be helped, just that it is NOT the governments job to do so. On that note, may I refer you to:
"Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism" by Arthur C. Brooks?
A quote from the synopsis on http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...65008216&itm=1
"Surprising proof that conservatives really are more compassionate--and more generous--than liberals."
No more silly than you suggesting that people who don't like it here simply leave instead of trying to improve the country as they see it.

I know what you're saying, I'm saying that a good chunk - if not a sizable majority - of the country disagrees with you.

And yes, I've read that. It's nice but like John Lott's dubious writing it's treated as gospel by the same people that bitch and moan about how higher education is all a bunch of liberal brainwashing and statistics can't be trusted.

I'll also look for the study that debunked some of the conclusions from that book.

thanks TFL, as if I didn't have enough homework already :p
 
Again, what your wife encounters on the job and what you encounter....dude, are you seriously using Wal-Mart to further your argument? Because if so that place can be used by anti-gunners a hell of a lot more effectively because I see some pretty retarded rednecks every time I go there that I wouldn't trust with a nail file let alone a firearm.

I used Wal-Mart for convienience. I could have easily named any other grocery store in the local area. You keep trying to equate welfare to a constitutional right. It's not, you really need to get over it.

But your experiences still don't define the reality of the situation. You don't know who has made poor choices. And don't tell me that you've made nothing but good choices your whole life and that you haven't been saved by luck a few times. Don't tell me that there haven't been times when a stupid decision on your part couldn't have ruined your life if you'd also been unlucky at that point because damn near everyone has had times like that. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone screws up. Some people are just luckier than others, more fortunate than others and have better support networks or were raised better.

I never said I always made good choices, but I can tell you nobody else has paid for my bad choices. It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with hard work instead of looking for the easy way to slide by.

How exactly does one put the responsibility on the fathers when they skip town and are never heard from again? Or when they can work under the table and not pay a dime in child support for a year before even being threatened with jail time?

Everyone can be found unless they leave the country. I would also like to see the responsibility put on the mothers. They decided to have the kid, they need to figure out how to support it if they can't find the babie's daddy.


You're still assuming that single mothers are a significant sources of these problems. And you're still ignoring the fact that it's the kids that are being assisted and they are not to blame for the mistakes of their parents.

I'm not ignoring or assuming anything. If she didn't have a kid she has no way of supporting, she wouldn't need support for the kid. So yes, she is the source of the problem along with the deadbeat dad.

I want a Ferarri, but I can't afford it. Maybe there is a social program that can help me. Far fetched, yes, but no more than the teen age moms who wanted a baby and goes on welfare to support it.
 
Screw the "parable" -- a "True" story

My daughter opened her paycheck, saw what was deducted, and cried "Dad, I'm a Republican".

My daughter wanted to go to college, so I asked her how she was going to pay for it.
She worked two and three jobs.
She didn't get the "4.0" (she got close), but what she DID get she knows she earned.

There's that pesky word.

I have mostly voted for the person. Mostly that's been someone from the Republican Party.
Whatever.

But I always vote my 2nd "rights".
NOT "whatever".

Too many forget (or were too young, or unaware, or flat out stupid about) how bad it got around '94.......

....gonna get way (WAY) worse for gun owners if a Dem wins this one.

That's the undeniable indisputable fact.



"Naivete" = lacking worldliness and sophistication, or analytical insight; simple in reasoning, like a child
 
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