A Boltgun Question
- Thread starter DPris
- Start date
stagpanther
New member
My personal set-up is AR for out-the-window/door into the yard or vehicle engagement and 14 rd 45acp handgun with back-up magazines for inside-the-house engagement. Shotgun stashed in bedroom for "last stand."
No, this thread is about the idea of using a boltgun for HD.
I merely mentioned the article thing to illustrate how seriously I do NOT understand the appeal, as in I even turned down a chance to make money off the idea.
Has nothing to do with the "trials of being a gunwriter".
Might be beneficial if you obtain help from a professional translator to help you with reading comprehension on this forum in future.
OK?
OK.
Denis
I merely mentioned the article thing to illustrate how seriously I do NOT understand the appeal, as in I even turned down a chance to make money off the idea.
Has nothing to do with the "trials of being a gunwriter".
Might be beneficial if you obtain help from a professional translator to help you with reading comprehension on this forum in future.
OK?
OK.
Denis
I assume that why is why am I considering it...
There are a few factors.
First, I absolutely wouldn't be considering a 3-5 round fixed mag bolt action rifle. That would be too limiting, and unlike a lever gun with a loading gate, very slow to reload individual rounds. The guns I'm considering all have removable mags, and a minimum capacity of 10 rounds (the two that take AR rounds can go to about 20 round mags and still work reliably).
Many people (myself included) consider pistol caliber lever rifles to be suitable as a home defense carbine. The round count on these particular bolt rifles will be the same or better with much quicker reloads.
Second, I live in MD which is very anti-gun. States Attorneys in some parts of the state have been known to charge people regardless of the facts after a self defense shoot and let the jury decide it. Even those areas where it isn't quite automatic, many parts of the state, the county prosecutors will be looking for any excuse. So, I want as PC looking a home defense gun as possible so the prosecutor won't think I'm a Rambo want-to-be that he/she has to charge, and if charged, a jury that hates or does't know guns won't see an "evil black rifle." The more it looks like grampa's hunting rifle, the better (I really need to retire my AR from potential home defense duties).
Bolt actions have some benefits. They are highly reliable. Two of the bolt rifles I'm considering are significantly cheaper than the M1 Carbine and Mini 14 that make up my top two choices, or the further down the list lever rifles. Both bolts actions and lever actions can be pretty quick to operate with practice, they aren't as slow as many people envision (or don't have to be). I'm not spray and praying, especially for home defense I will be taking a moment for aimed shots as much as I can.
In general, I think these 10 (or greater) round removable box magazine, short and light, bolt action rifles with iron sights or the right optic can make a good home defense gun. For someone in the right circumstances (live in an anti-gun state and want to improve your post-shoot chances, you are a hunter with a lot of bolt action experience, you seriously want something different) these can be more than adequate and can be quite a good choice for many people. I wouldn't say that as a blanket statement about all bolt rifles, but about the scout and similar lightweight rifles in the right calibers (mainly .223/5.56), they can work well.
Yes, a semi-auto is still my first choice right now. My emotional first choice based mainly on want and not how many boxes it checks would go to a Winchester 92, Uberti Win 1866 reproduction, or a Henry Big Boy. However, I am seriously considering those few bolt action rifles that look like they'd make good home defense rifles. Partly to do something different, but largely to get something as PC looking as possible yet still quite capable as a home defense gun.
stagpanther
New member
I grew up in Monkey (Montgomery) county--what Chaim says is not far off the mark about political courts--though at the end of the day I'd rather take chances in court than be on the losing end of who had the more politically correct bullet.
I've looked at the ruger predator ranch rifle--though I haven't shot one--and thought it would be a handy rifle to have around the home but I personally probably wouldn't be coordinated enough to shoot a bolt gun rapidly under pressure.
I've looked at the ruger predator ranch rifle--though I haven't shot one--and thought it would be a handy rifle to have around the home but I personally probably wouldn't be coordinated enough to shoot a bolt gun rapidly under pressure.If you live in a restricted environment where a good semi-auto rifle is not feasible, then I fully understand that you have to go with what you have.
A rifle in general is typically not the most efficient tool to use in interior home defense because it's long & bulky, but a bolt-action usually adds slow speed to that equation with little practical advantage over a handgun.
Using a rifle with a scope adds further handicap.
To be clear:
My comments are not intended to generate a debate over which specific gun is better for HD, they are very simply expressing bafflement over why anybody would choose a longer gun that's distinctly un-handy for such use, and a slower-to-fire action type, with a limited magazine capacity, over something more efficient.
In that role, I don't include "something different" or something "as PC looking as possible" among the list of selection criteria on a tool I bet my life on.
I want the most EFFICIENT tool for the job.
And I remain baffled over the selection of a bolt-action rifle as such a tool.
Denis
A rifle in general is typically not the most efficient tool to use in interior home defense because it's long & bulky, but a bolt-action usually adds slow speed to that equation with little practical advantage over a handgun.
Using a rifle with a scope adds further handicap.
To be clear:
My comments are not intended to generate a debate over which specific gun is better for HD, they are very simply expressing bafflement over why anybody would choose a longer gun that's distinctly un-handy for such use, and a slower-to-fire action type, with a limited magazine capacity, over something more efficient.
In that role, I don't include "something different" or something "as PC looking as possible" among the list of selection criteria on a tool I bet my life on.
I want the most EFFICIENT tool for the job.
And I remain baffled over the selection of a bolt-action rifle as such a tool.
Denis
@DPris: Now that I understand the scope and conditions of your question, I'm kind of baffled too. As you acknowledge, the regulatory reasons are genuine. There are several jurisdictions where handgun ownership in this country is banned or where the administrative hassle and cost of obtaining a handgun permit are out of reach of the average citizen.
I have also known several serious hunter and target shooters who simply had a personal antipathy towards handguns (tool of the criminal, etc). You could take away handguns but don't mess with their shotgun and rifle. In years past, I tried to explain, that as gun owners we needed to hang together or we would hang separately, but that message never seemed to reach them. But again, that response is outside your scope of a reasoned and informed decision. Many of us just make decisions on emotions.
I also understand that your criteria rules it out, but using a bolt action rifle because it's what you have should, perhaps, be recognized a little. A few months back we had some car and garage break ins during the night (which was totally unheard of and shocking for everyone). My neighbor, who is an avid trap shooter and hunter, simply loaded his Remington 700 and left it by his bed. He did that simply because it was "what he had", and I guess that could be an answer in an overwhelming number of cases.
Another reason could be a "novelty" factor. I rotate my nightstand guns, and occasionally I'll throw in a single action, 44-40. I know it's not the best choice, but I believe it is effective enough for my likely scenario. Again, I do it just for the change.
Anyway, great thought provoking question! Give us another one? LOL
I have also known several serious hunter and target shooters who simply had a personal antipathy towards handguns (tool of the criminal, etc). You could take away handguns but don't mess with their shotgun and rifle. In years past, I tried to explain, that as gun owners we needed to hang together or we would hang separately, but that message never seemed to reach them. But again, that response is outside your scope of a reasoned and informed decision. Many of us just make decisions on emotions.
I also understand that your criteria rules it out, but using a bolt action rifle because it's what you have should, perhaps, be recognized a little. A few months back we had some car and garage break ins during the night (which was totally unheard of and shocking for everyone). My neighbor, who is an avid trap shooter and hunter, simply loaded his Remington 700 and left it by his bed. He did that simply because it was "what he had", and I guess that could be an answer in an overwhelming number of cases.
Another reason could be a "novelty" factor. I rotate my nightstand guns, and occasionally I'll throw in a single action, 44-40. I know it's not the best choice, but I believe it is effective enough for my likely scenario. Again, I do it just for the change.
Anyway, great thought provoking question! Give us another one? LOL
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As I said- if you don't take HD seriously enough to provide yourself with a serious HD tool, then you're FORCED to use whatever you've got.
Hence the constant use on screen of the intrepid hubby responding to a noise-in-the-night with his trusty baseball bat or 9 iron.
Or in the case of an actual gun owner, a deer rifle.
Those are deliberate cases of "I don't care enough to take my home defense seriously to bother getting a REAL home defense gun."
We're talking here about making a bolt-action rifle the first choice, as part of a conscious effort to make THAT choice in the face of so many better alternatives, while there's time enough to GET a better alternative, and money to PAY for a better alternative.
And, as with the PC thing mentioned earlier, I don't do "rotation".
I choose the best tool for the job & stick with it.
That includes concealed everyday handgun & dedicated HD gun.
I ALWAYS know how to run those even half awake, I don't have to stop & think about how the gun of the day functions, and I do NOT select ANY defensive tool "just for the change", or for its novelty value.
A life-saving shield is not a matter of buying a gun because you like it, and THEN deciding to MAKE it work for SD or HD.
It should be the most efficient tool you can find, based on your situation & your ability to run it well.
If local law offers restrictions, then you do what you have to do.
Otherwise, I remain baffled at the deliberate choice to handicap yourself, IF you CAN do better.
PC & emotion should not apply.
Denis
Hence the constant use on screen of the intrepid hubby responding to a noise-in-the-night with his trusty baseball bat or 9 iron.
Or in the case of an actual gun owner, a deer rifle.
Those are deliberate cases of "I don't care enough to take my home defense seriously to bother getting a REAL home defense gun."
We're talking here about making a bolt-action rifle the first choice, as part of a conscious effort to make THAT choice in the face of so many better alternatives, while there's time enough to GET a better alternative, and money to PAY for a better alternative.
And, as with the PC thing mentioned earlier, I don't do "rotation".
I choose the best tool for the job & stick with it.
That includes concealed everyday handgun & dedicated HD gun.
I ALWAYS know how to run those even half awake, I don't have to stop & think about how the gun of the day functions, and I do NOT select ANY defensive tool "just for the change", or for its novelty value.
A life-saving shield is not a matter of buying a gun because you like it, and THEN deciding to MAKE it work for SD or HD.
It should be the most efficient tool you can find, based on your situation & your ability to run it well.
If local law offers restrictions, then you do what you have to do.
Otherwise, I remain baffled at the deliberate choice to handicap yourself, IF you CAN do better.
PC & emotion should not apply.
Denis
I wouldn't purposely pick a bolt action for a HD gun. But my situation might pick it for me. Maybe by law I can't own a handgun or a long gun with a box mag or rifle that held more than 5 rounds. Then a bolt action would be put in to service.
Or if my financial situation made it so all I could afford was a shotgun, 22 rifle and one deer hunting gun. I started out in that situation when I moved out of my parents house at 18. I had a double barrel 12ga shotgun that was a birthday gift at 10 and a Winchester model 190 I bought when I was 16-17. My first gun purchase. I kept both of those loaded and if I would have owned a bolt action it would have been loaded and ready to go also. Two years later I was married and those same two guns did the job. It was two years after that that I got my first hand gun and deer rifle. A bolt action. And would have used it if needed.
If I found a Destroyer 9mm rifle and the ammo that it takes I might have that stashed around the house too. Even now and thats with all the other 80 or so guns I already own. Its not like firing a high intensity bottle neck round.
Close to two years ago I was asked to clean out the shop of a friend, He was a master gun smith, a better machinist and a better welder. Among the rifles he gave me was an Argentine 1891, I thought it was a BM 7.65mm53. After I checked it out it turned into a 308 W.
My intent was to put it back to the 7.65mm53 BM so I let it be know I needed some parts for the 91 Argentine Mauser. When collecting all of the parts I found I had 3 shotgun barrels. I called my friend to let him know I was wrong about the chamber in the rifle. I asked him what he used it for; he said he used it for a loaner, he said when someone showed up without a rifle to hunt with he loaned them the Argentine 91 rifle.
F. Guffey
tubeshooter
New member
I know I am late to the party here and it sounds like the discussion is largely done, but I did want to make a comment.
While I agree that a bolt gun isn't ideal, I don't think it's as much of a handicap as it's made out to be here. It is better than nothing. If circumstances (financial or otherwise) pressed someone into using a bolt gun in this role, they would at least have a chance.
I mean really - would it be THAT much worse than a lever gun? In my mind, the answer is no. The lever gun is quicker for the next shot and easier to top off... but not by all THAT much.
I'm not saying I would argue for a bolt as a primary choice, but I have a Hog Hunter that I think I could hold my own with if I had to. That's all I'm saying. To each his own; carry on.
While I agree that a bolt gun isn't ideal, I don't think it's as much of a handicap as it's made out to be here. It is better than nothing. If circumstances (financial or otherwise) pressed someone into using a bolt gun in this role, they would at least have a chance.
I mean really - would it be THAT much worse than a lever gun? In my mind, the answer is no. The lever gun is quicker for the next shot and easier to top off... but not by all THAT much.
I'm not saying I would argue for a bolt as a primary choice, but I have a Hog Hunter that I think I could hold my own with if I had to. That's all I'm saying. To each his own; carry on.