Justice06RR
New member
And each additional round you can carry can save your live vs carrying less on a .45
If you cant shoot worth crap with either, its worthless. But you can never have too much ammo....
9mm vs .45 ACP (not what you are thinking)
- Thread starter DAS9mm
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And each additional round you can carry can save your live vs carrying less on a .45
If you cant shoot worth crap with either, its worthless. But you can never have too much ammo....
Until you shoot both into 60's and 70's era cars and the .45's dont always make it through the doors into the passenger compartment. Ive shot a few different things that the .45's had trouble penetrating, where the 9mm's always went through.
Advances in ammo these days also make the caliber wars pretty much a moot point. Most people now realize that regardless of caliber, you have to shoot well and hit vitals to put a determined target down.
The "hit'em in the pinky with a .45 and they will go down like a rock" thing just doesnt fly.
Carry_24/7
New member
While i'm not a ballistics mathmetician, I do value .45 ACP more because it was specifically developed through trial and error with direct feedback from the battlefield about its effectiveness at quickly stopping an individual enemy. I don't think the 9mm was developed that way..correct me if i'm wrong.
I do have one 9mm remaining, my Walther PPS; which is priceless as a CC weapon. Its extremely accurate, reliable, compact and light.
But if I knew "today is gunfight day", i'd most definately strap on my commander 1911. But, we all know thats not how it works. With my luck, that day would find me in shorts, flip flops, and my LCP!
I do have one 9mm remaining, my Walther PPS; which is priceless as a CC weapon. Its extremely accurate, reliable, compact and light.
But if I knew "today is gunfight day", i'd most definately strap on my commander 1911. But, we all know thats not how it works. With my luck, that day would find me in shorts, flip flops, and my LCP!
MadHatter1
New member
I don't believe caliber is a mute point at all. Modern ammo does make calibers like the 9mm more effective, but it also increases the effectiveness of the .45. All else being equal (shot placement, bullet type, design, and matierial, etc) the .45 will do more damage to tissue.
While on the range, faster accurate follow ups are easier with a lighter caliber, its not so simple in the real world. When the standard for police departments was the .357 revolver, officers typicaly fired 5 rounds and hit with 3. When the hi cap 9mm became commonplace, the number of shots fired climbed to about 10, and the hit rate dropped to < 40%. So a softer recoiling caliber did lead to more follow up shots, but poor shot placement.
While on the range, faster accurate follow ups are easier with a lighter caliber, its not so simple in the real world. When the standard for police departments was the .357 revolver, officers typicaly fired 5 rounds and hit with 3. When the hi cap 9mm became commonplace, the number of shots fired climbed to about 10, and the hit rate dropped to < 40%. So a softer recoiling caliber did lead to more follow up shots, but poor shot placement.
I recently changed duty guns for a similar reason (the wack, not the boom). I shot at a LE IDPA style match in June, guys were shooting all the usual calibers - 9mm , .40, .45. I shot my S&W 9mm 1911 Pro Series, it is very fast and accurate, one of my favorite guns to shoot. Well this year we were shooting mostly steel and reactive targets and one stage had 8 big steel targets you had to knock down (you can see them in the pic below). Turns out the 115gr 9mm FMJ really doesn't have nearly the oomph of a 230gr .45acp. The guys shooting .45s dropped them with 1-2 shots, those of us shooting 9s and 40s needed 3-5 hits to knock them down. It was very frustrating and when the match was over it just ate at me because my thought was, if I can't knock down steel how am I going to knock down people. Irrational, I know, and I know that on flesh with modern JHP defensive ammo the 9mm holds it's own, but...... So, when I got home I went to the safe and swapped the 9 for a .45 and went with Ranger T 230gr JHP +P and I feel better for it.
Like I said, I know it's irrational, I know the 9mm can do the job. I know that chances are I'll never need to fire my weapon in the line of duty (or in self defense off duty for the matter). However, when I couldn't keep up with the .45s on that steel I lost my confidence in it and I can't carry it if I don't trust it.
Like I said, I know it's irrational, I know the 9mm can do the job. I know that chances are I'll never need to fire my weapon in the line of duty (or in self defense off duty for the matter). However, when I couldn't keep up with the .45s on that steel I lost my confidence in it and I can't carry it if I don't trust it.
loose_holster_dan
New member
did you ever think that he was hitting the edge, or even better the corner, of the box? i shoot random things all the time. when my 22 hits the reinforced corner of something, it sores a lot farther than when i put a 45 round right through the middle.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
The 45 ACP is descended from the 45 Long Colt revolver round, a horse-stopping cartridge for the U.S. Calvary back in the day. It was tested on cattle at the Chicago Stockyards and carried the day over other entries, and quickly became the official U.S. Army handgun caliber. John M. Browning gave the Army what it wanted, but harbored grave reservations about the 45 as the best anti personnel round.
His next piece of major work was the 9mm Browning HiPower semi automatic. Draw your own conclusions from that about Browning's choice of ballistics.
I've never seen referenced anything about engineering behind the 9mm. The choice of a .355 inch diameter bullet may have been more related to the size of metal stock and metal working tools available at the time than any ballistic criteria.
I am by no means expert in the history of either caliber. If someone has more specific knowledge of how the 9mm came about, please render it here now for the benefit of all.
FYI: A terrific pictorial history of the 1911 45 ACP pistol is given in the current July-August issue of Field and Stream Magazine.
I love a 9mm. Very low recoil, can fit in a small package for concealed carry, cheap to shoot if buying ammo at the store. But it will never replace a .45 in my home. I love my .45's, both my Colt single action .45 "Long" Colt and my USP .45 ACP. The stopping power of the .45 ACP is unmatched in a auto handguns and is very cheap to reload and worth the extra money for factory ammo if you don't reload. The recoil on a mid or full size .45 is not bad at all. I don't know why a lot of people call it a hand cannon. The reason I say the stopping power in a .45 is best in an auto pistol is not because I'm saying it's more powerful than a 10mm or anything, but it's all you need. A one shot stop is almost guarunteed with a .45 ACP. Why go 10mm if you can shoot a bad guy in the chest one time with a .45 ACP and he will 99% of the time fall to the ground, most likely dead. I've learned that a double tap with just about any cartridge will increase chances of incapacitation by 75% if both rounds are placed in the torso. That + .45 ACP = a great, safe feeling for me and my family. 9mm will kill you dead and it has stood the test of time, even longer than .45 ACP. But there is a reason why we switched from the .38 Colt back to the .45 Colt in the Philipenes. Because the opium induced savages could not be stopped by the weaker caliber nearly as affectively as with a .45. And the .45 Colt back then was not as great as the .45 ACP is today. Especially with hollowpoints. And JHP or not, you don't have to worry about over penetration with a .45 as much as you do with a 9mm. I want my bullet to stick in the bad guy and stay there. Not pass all the way through making a clean wound and possibly hitting a bystander behind him. The FBI's magical penetration of 12" is a load of crap. It's pretty much just incase you are using a caliber weaker than a .45 and the bad guy is wearying thick clothing or has an arm extended towards you or something. Which even in the heat of battle you should know not to shoot his arm...
Carry_24/7
New member
Even if John Browning did not like the round, the soldiers did, and that's what counts.
Of course there's a lot more to the story. Initially the Army stated they wanted "at least .45 caliber", not specifically an auto, but it evolved into that.
It's a very interesting history. I have several books on it.
Of course there's a lot more to the story. Initially the Army stated they wanted "at least .45 caliber", not specifically an auto, but it evolved into that.
It's a very interesting history. I have several books on it.
It's not half the price if you reload. But I admit, sometimes I get lazy and take my P38 to the range with some wal-mart 9mm. But as far as price, it is much better to invest in reloading a .45 ACP in my opinion. And casting lead rounds for yourself is even better and more accurate and consistant than store bought. With lead casting and reloading, it's about $7 for 50 rounds for me on my .45 which is half the price fo 9mm in my neck of the woods. I've never reloaded a 9mm but I don't think it's any cheaper than reloading my .45 ACP. I got into casting when I got a .44 cap 'n' ball revolver a while back. That was fun. They sell lead weights and bars at my flea market for fishing, but of course you can cast the lead into what ever you want.
Pbearperry
New member
I believe bullets are much like Boxing Champs.Would you rather be hit by a lightweight champ or a heavyweight champ?Too simple,maybe?
Exactly. Guns are fun for the range and all, but what is the purpose of a gun, especially a handgun? To kill right? Well I think a .45 regular 230 grain bullet will do much more killing than a 9mm 115 grain. I don't care if it's +p or what ever you want to put in your 9mm, a .45 will smack that target a lot harder and will cause a lot more problems for the bad guy than a 9mm would. When I look at self defense rounds, I want a big, slow, devistating round. Not a quick and small round that punches a little hole through the bad guy. With JHP the 9mm is much better, but the .45 is still king. Why do you think MARSOC and Navy Seals use .45's? Because they NEED a round that will drop the bad guy no matter how many rounds they put in him. I feel safe with a 9mm but I feel a lot safer with a .45 by my side. And I have no problem with follow up shots on my .45. My USP .45 has an easier kick than my Glock 17. Plus you don't need a follow up shot if the bad guy is dead...
I would refer to my my first year of physics in college for this problem.
Mass X Velocity = Force on the object
I realize this is a very simplified version of the question you're arguing over but with this equation we can find which one is going to be hitting the target the "hardest". We could make it more complicated by taking into account the sectional densities and everything else, but using this simple formula it's easy to see which caliber lands on top.
I'm going to use Speer's short barrel ammo for my example and base it on contact at 25 yards:
Speer 9mm 124gr +P M(124) X V(1089) = 135,036
Speer .45 Auto 230gr M(230) X V(801) = 184,230
I know I didn't do any of the conversions but you can tell by the numbers that the .45 Auto is going to be producing more force on the object it hits at 25 yards than the 9mm is capable of doing. If someone wanted to do the conversion and math involved, you could figure out the difference between the 2 calibers but if I'm doing my math right it looks like the .45 Auto is going to be hitting with roughly 30% more force...?
Mass X Velocity = Force on the object
I realize this is a very simplified version of the question you're arguing over but with this equation we can find which one is going to be hitting the target the "hardest". We could make it more complicated by taking into account the sectional densities and everything else, but using this simple formula it's easy to see which caliber lands on top.
I'm going to use Speer's short barrel ammo for my example and base it on contact at 25 yards:
Speer 9mm 124gr +P M(124) X V(1089) = 135,036
Speer .45 Auto 230gr M(230) X V(801) = 184,230
I know I didn't do any of the conversions but you can tell by the numbers that the .45 Auto is going to be producing more force on the object it hits at 25 yards than the 9mm is capable of doing. If someone wanted to do the conversion and math involved, you could figure out the difference between the 2 calibers but if I'm doing my math right it looks like the .45 Auto is going to be hitting with roughly 30% more force...?
And just like in boxing (or other "contact" sports), the results of a high speed "light" punch are usually the same as the slower "heavy" punch, when landed in the appropriate spot.
In case you missed it, the last two words above are the important part of the whole thing, not the punch. Same goes when it comes to handgun bullets. A millimeter here, or a few fps or f/pd's there, really arent the lightning bolts the numbers people would like you to believe.
Ammo is still a lot cheaper than your life. Use it liberally and dont stop until you have shot them to the ground. The results will be the same, regardless of caliber.
In case you missed it, the last two words above are the important part of the whole thing, not the punch. Same goes when it comes to handgun bullets. A millimeter here, or a few fps or f/pd's there, really arent the lightning bolts the numbers people would like you to believe.
Ammo is still a lot cheaper than your life. Use it liberally and dont stop until you have shot them to the ground. The results will be the same, regardless of caliber.
Therealkoop
New member
John browning designed the hi-power to use 9mm for no reason other than that is what was asked of him by his employer.
Carry_24/7
New member
TheRealKoop; well said.
I do not know the origins of the 9mm, but I know the .45 ACP story veeery well.
It was developed with putting people on the ground directly in mind. Cadaver labs were used, as well as reports from the battlefield to perfect it.
Now, to give the 9mm its due, I do not have another pistol as accurate as my Walther PPS 9, its wicked with multiple shots. But, theres something I trust more about the 230 grain 45 ACP round, and its development history.
As someone mentioned before, go bowling pin shooting with both 9mm and 230 grain .45 ACP. The difference is dramatic!
Yes, shot placement is key, but its not everything. If it were, no one would need .500 magnums and 454 casull when in Grizzly country, 9mm would do.
SIZE DOES MATTER
I do not know the origins of the 9mm, but I know the .45 ACP story veeery well.
It was developed with putting people on the ground directly in mind. Cadaver labs were used, as well as reports from the battlefield to perfect it.
Now, to give the 9mm its due, I do not have another pistol as accurate as my Walther PPS 9, its wicked with multiple shots. But, theres something I trust more about the 230 grain 45 ACP round, and its development history.
As someone mentioned before, go bowling pin shooting with both 9mm and 230 grain .45 ACP. The difference is dramatic!
Yes, shot placement is key, but its not everything. If it were, no one would need .500 magnums and 454 casull when in Grizzly country, 9mm would do.
SIZE DOES MATTER