9mm vs. .357 magnum-Myth Busted
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SonOfScubaDiver
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Well, this was a good thread. Not any more.
Hi shurshot,
BTW, my former agency retrained us based upon US DOJ stats and FBI firearms training protocol. I'm not sure if the FBI ever qualified at 25 yards. Maybe its cops did a long time ago.
There are many benefits of standard capacity (I refuse to call standard capacity magazines hi-cap mags) semis. Bangers rarely caper alone. If there's one, there'll be another close by. Lots of rounds allow cops to easily transition to other bad guys without the tactical disadvantage of reloading.
To this day, if I see a prison tatted up dude walking into a restaurant where I'm dining, I'll leave. If there's more than one, I'll call local cops. If anything, local cops are gonna want to know that they have bad dude felons in their beats.
I used to carry a Model 60. I called it a neck & up gun. With the FBI load, its recoil was unwieldy making it most difficult to keep its muzzle on target. My life is worth far more than a Model 60 can deliver.
When I carry, and I couldn't tell you the last time I have (retirement credentials allow me to carry throughout the USA), it's a P239 .40 S&W. I still have my old on-duty gun: a P229 .40 S&W with standard cap mags that politicians of the totalitarian state of CA have allowed retired cops to retain...subject to change, of course. That was by a huge margin the best duty gun I've carried. If I had to go into LA, I'd take my P229 with a couple loaded mags. But then again, I will avoid going into LA to every possible extent. LA, like most large American cities, has far too many seriously bad dudes who'd kill for fun.
BTW, when I got into my former gig, we were issued revolvers. I doubt that a single cop liked 'em. Within a few years, we went with 9MM semis. Dinosaurs could carry revolvers. Within a couple years, that policy was revised. No cop was allowed to go 10-8 with a revolver as his primary duty handgun. It was all semis. As far as I know, cops of my former agency can carry .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I'm not sure about 9MM.
Take care & stay safe,
SA1911
BTW, my former agency retrained us based upon US DOJ stats and FBI firearms training protocol. I'm not sure if the FBI ever qualified at 25 yards. Maybe its cops did a long time ago.
There are many benefits of standard capacity (I refuse to call standard capacity magazines hi-cap mags) semis. Bangers rarely caper alone. If there's one, there'll be another close by. Lots of rounds allow cops to easily transition to other bad guys without the tactical disadvantage of reloading.
To this day, if I see a prison tatted up dude walking into a restaurant where I'm dining, I'll leave. If there's more than one, I'll call local cops. If anything, local cops are gonna want to know that they have bad dude felons in their beats.
I used to carry a Model 60. I called it a neck & up gun. With the FBI load, its recoil was unwieldy making it most difficult to keep its muzzle on target. My life is worth far more than a Model 60 can deliver.
When I carry, and I couldn't tell you the last time I have (retirement credentials allow me to carry throughout the USA), it's a P239 .40 S&W. I still have my old on-duty gun: a P229 .40 S&W with standard cap mags that politicians of the totalitarian state of CA have allowed retired cops to retain...subject to change, of course. That was by a huge margin the best duty gun I've carried. If I had to go into LA, I'd take my P229 with a couple loaded mags. But then again, I will avoid going into LA to every possible extent. LA, like most large American cities, has far too many seriously bad dudes who'd kill for fun.
BTW, when I got into my former gig, we were issued revolvers. I doubt that a single cop liked 'em. Within a few years, we went with 9MM semis. Dinosaurs could carry revolvers. Within a couple years, that policy was revised. No cop was allowed to go 10-8 with a revolver as his primary duty handgun. It was all semis. As far as I know, cops of my former agency can carry .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I'm not sure about 9MM.
Take care & stay safe,
SA1911
"Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock is a term which describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact." Wikpidea. Granted, Wik is not a very objective or always accurate, and HSS is just a theory, but this current definition describes what many of us who hunt have observed when a high power rifle bullet hits a game animal. SA1911; as a side note, you may already know this, but heads up... carrying on the LEOSA 218, as a retired LEO, you still have to abide by magazine capacity regs when you travel through other states. You may be fine out west, but if you go through NY, NJ and some of the other New England states, 10 round mag capacity is the law of the land. When I travel to Florida, I take one of my revolvers and my Sig 220, as they under 10 shots.
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RIDE-RED 350r
New member
Apples and coconuts I'm sure, but if I strike a deer's shoulder on entry or exit with my 270, they get destroyed. Hydrostatic shock?? SST bullet rapid expansion?? I couldn't tell you. But I can tell you that shoulder meat no less than 8" from the actual hole is too pulverized and nasty to eat. Had a front shoulder take an exit wound due to a quartering shot that very nearly fell off when I skinned the deer.
I've also had partially jellyfied lungs when best I could tell the bullet didn't actually strike the lungs.
Like I said, world of difference between a 270 Win and the pistols being discussed.. Just something to consider with the subject of hydrostatic shock being brought up.
I've also had partially jellyfied lungs when best I could tell the bullet didn't actually strike the lungs.
Like I said, world of difference between a 270 Win and the pistols being discussed.. Just something to consider with the subject of hydrostatic shock being brought up.
zincwarrior
New member
Gents probably would be good to ratchet back the heat on the thread, its clouding any useful information that may be garnered.
OldMarksman
Staff
That refers to common handgun projectiles, and it is certainly the consensus of informed scientific opinion on the subject.
SA1911; "To this day, if I see a prison tatted up dude walking into a restaurant where I'm dining, I'll leave. If there's more than one, I'll call local cops. If anything, local cops are gonna want to know that they have bad dude felons in their beats."
FYI; Some of those "prison tatted guys" are actually pretty nice fellas and you may be surprised to know they might have cooked your meal, or own the resteraunt. Can't always judge someone based on looks, or the fact they made mistakes when they were younger. Hard to find many under 30 that don't have tattoos now. Most coffee shops and restaurants employ convicted felons and many of them are in fact hard working and trying to turn over a new leaf.
FYI; Some of those "prison tatted guys" are actually pretty nice fellas and you may be surprised to know they might have cooked your meal, or own the resteraunt. Can't always judge someone based on looks, or the fact they made mistakes when they were younger. Hard to find many under 30 that don't have tattoos now. Most coffee shops and restaurants employ convicted felons and many of them are in fact hard working and trying to turn over a new leaf.
OldMarksman
Staff
"Static" and "shock" cannot describe the same phenomenon. "Shock" is dynamic.
What it refers to in ballistics is the dynamic pressure wave caused by the bullet.
In most cases, but perhaps not all, the wounding effects of the pressure wave are characteristic only of wounding with high-velocity projectiles.
The exceptions would involve a strike in close proximity of something that is easily damaged, or rendered temporarily non-functional, by a spike in fluid pressure.
The phenomenon of destruction by pressure waves has been known for at least 75 years. Somewhere along the line, some gun writers started to apply the term "hydrostatic shock". Jack O'Connor was among the first, as i recall.
RIDE-RED 350r
New member
Hydrodynamic a better term for it?
Well, the last couple pages have been ...interesting..and hugely off topic.
The original topic was not about weapons platforms, tactics, or gunfights and how to win them.
And, while some of us are LEO trained and experienced, many are not, a fact which DOES NOT invalidate their opinion and experiences.
I don't much care who taught you what, where, or when, posts that essentially boil down to "if you don't do it the way I say, you're going to diiiieeee!!!!" add nothing to the discussion, even when they are ON topic.
Focus on replying to the OP, constructively, please.
The original topic was not about weapons platforms, tactics, or gunfights and how to win them.
And, while some of us are LEO trained and experienced, many are not, a fact which DOES NOT invalidate their opinion and experiences.
I don't much care who taught you what, where, or when, posts that essentially boil down to "if you don't do it the way I say, you're going to diiiieeee!!!!" add nothing to the discussion, even when they are ON topic.
Focus on replying to the OP, constructively, please.
"With an auto, you're only one bad primer away from disaster." Wasn't that an old Bill Jordan quote? I know I can pull the trigger on my revolver a second time MUCH quicker than I can "tap n' rack" a semi to clear it in case of a misfire, which most of us can learn to do fairly quickly with practice. And, over the years, I have observed many jams with top brand semiautomatics. A good .357 or .44 Mag revolver is comforting to me, puts me at peace, much like a warm fire and 12 year old Canadian Whisky on a cold, dark night.
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zincwarrior
New member
Are you arguing delivery device or round?. I have seen revolvers jam. I have seen semis jam. If you are arguing delivery device thats a steep hill to climb. No military or police unit I am aware of issues revolvers for use against people.
Not arguing, just stating my preference. Another reason I prefer a revolver, if you are involved in a fight, a real NASTY, life or death, up close and personal fight, perhaps on the ground... and you shove the barrel of the revolver up against an attacker, full contact, pushing the barrel into their body, then you can shoot the revolver multiple times. In most semi-auto pistols, pushing the barrel against a hard surface will put the weapon out of battery and it won't fire, or if it does, it won't cycle properly for a 2nd shot. I like Paul's Youtube channel, no ego, just objective information based upon facts.
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