9mm vs. .357 magnum-Myth Busted

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reddog81 said:
If you want to do a comparison where the results are not definitively known in advance compare a 38 +P load vs a regular 9MM load.

158 grain @ 950 FPS vs 124 grain @ 1100 FPS is much closer than 9mm vs .357.
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I don't disagree, except when it comes to some of the older .38 JHP bullet designs which seemed to clog and exhibit erratic, if any, expansion even when fired out of 4" service revolvers. Of course, the older 115gr 9mm JHP's could sometimes suffer from similar issues. We have some better JHP designs from which to choose nowadays.

I've seen the results of a similar comparison done in hosted gel testing, usually comparing a 125gr-135gr +P .38, fired from a snub, to 147gr or 124gr +P 127gr +P+ 9mm, fired from a duty pistol. (In one of the earlier tests the 147gr and 127gr +P+ loads were checked in a 4LD test, fired from a 3" CS9, too.) The newer snub loads seemed to offer a little less penetration than the 9 loads, although in one of them the 130gr +P performed (that day), fired from a 642, pretty similarly to a 127gr +P+, fired from a duty 9, in the Auto Glass/gel test. Probably toss a coin for any other day, or other shots, though.

The days of the 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P have been somewhat eclipsed by some of the lighter .38 bullet weights of more modern manufacture. (I still have some remaining boxes of both the Rem Express and W-W SPD loads, though. I just seldom carry them anymore.)
 
T. O'Heir said:
+P+ is about pressure, period.
"...Youtube 'experts,'..." Like Mr. Paul Harrell? Don't get your education from YouTube. It's worse than Wikipedia.
There is no "9mm vs .357 Magnum". Any more than there is a .45 ACP vs 9mm. That the assorted gun rags have been arguing about for 40 years or more.
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I'm a rookie here... but, let's not forget, Mr. Harrell does have expertise in many aspects of shooting and firearm training, well beyond the norm. I think the video he prepared gave a great side by side comparison of two similar diameter, but very different caliber bullets.
 
Been hanging around gun folks for 50 years. This argument is not new.

The 357 shoots a similar bullet at a faster speed. Does that make the 9mm inadequate? A man is not generally hard to put down. Often a hit from a 22 will cause a human target to fold in panic at being shot. A 20mm may not be enough to stop a powerful man jacked up on drugs. No telling.

My most common carry is a 380 loaded with 88 JHPs moving at 1,050 FPS. Not considered powerful but I feel OK with it. Rather have my 115/1250 9mm with me but the guns are too bulky and heavy for me to carry.

The best defensive pistol is the one in your hand.
 
I think the video he prepared gave a great side by side comparison of two similar diameter, but very different caliber bullets.
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And that comparison did not address the things that bullets must do in self defense.
 
A couple of points to ponder, first, if hot 9mm Parabellum was "as good" as the 125gr .357 Mag, why was the .357 SIG even created??

Another thing, while the 9mm Parabellum is considered excellent for shooting people, its not well thought of for shooting anything else, large or small, and the .357 Magnum is well regarded in that respect.

There are people who want and use a handgun that is versatile, performing well in more than just one area.

Few people realize how much the 9mm Parabellum has been enhanced since its origin. More development has gone into improving the round's performance in the last 40 years than in the previous 70!

While at the same time, the .357 has gone from being a full house magnum suited to heavy large frame revolvers to a round suited to all frame size revolvers, at least in most of the common factory loads.

Rather than argue which is "better" why not consider using them like their names imply...

9mm Parabellum
for war

.357 Magnum
for everything else that matters...:D
 
A couple of points to ponder, first, if hot 9mm Parabellum was "as good" as the 125gr .357 Mag, why was the .357 SIG even created??
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My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the development was due to a need for penetration of plate glass and other things by some law enforcement officers.

Another thing, while the 9mm Parabellum is considered excellent for shooting people, its not well thought of for shooting anything else, large or small, and the .357 Magnum is well regarded in that respect.
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Excellent point.
 
44 Amp I completely agree that they are two different calibers, best suited for different weapons and purposes. When hiking and camping in the woods I will take my GP100 for protection against wildcats, bears, wolves, chupucabras, feral pigs, killer rabbits, and other dangerous wild critters. For protection against two legged threats I will take a 9 mm every time.
 
When I turned 21, back in 71, The first thing I did was get a concealed carry permit. Right after that I bought my first Ruger 357 wit a 4 inch barrel.For a time I shot only factory loads but when I had saved a few hundred rounds I started reloading for it. I had been loading for my '06 and so I worked up a load based on some very old data from a reloading book. The max load listed was 19.6 grains of H110 with a 140 grain JHP bullet and 19.7 grains of H110 with a Speer 146 grain half jacket HP. I tried the lighter bullets and the heavier bullet but I really liked that 146 HJHP. It was very fast and accurate as any handgun I had seen. I used it when I started shooting silhouette until they told me I couldn't use it because it left a perfect imprint of the hollow point in the chicken targets. I switched to the 140 JHP and it didn't leave the imprint. The 140 was every bit as accurate but just enough slower that I had to correct for trajectory out at 100 yards.
I have carried it or my six inch Ruger since before I competed with it.
I have been told several times that the 9mm was just as powerful as a 357 and I just shake my head and walk away thinking, "another internet expert". A 140 JHP at 1464 fps from a four inch barrel and 1520 fps from a six inch barrel is tons faster than any 9mm with a 135 or 147 grain bullet. There is no way you can put enough of any powder into a 9mm case to equal a 19.1 grain charge in that 357. The case may not have been designed to hold more powder but it will hold more H110 than you can fit into a 9mm case. The point is, the 357 can do it safely with just a tiny bit of room left over.
 
Please enlighten me?
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The comparison showed the breaking of large monolithic items--blocks, fruits and vegetables --requiring absolutely no accuracy, and at a very slow rate of fire.

In self defense, projectiles must (1) penetrate deeply enough to destroy small critical body elements and (2) actually hit one or more of those elements.

The latter is known colloquially as "shot placement", but in reality, because the critical targets are hidden and are moving fast, success is more serendipitous than a matter of skill or "marksmanship". And then there is the extremely short time available--several shots in one or two seconds.

That boils down to an imperative for a very high rate of controlled fire.

More "bang" just won't help.

There is an excellent, though lengthy, discussion of the topic in this book:


 
The 357 magnum and 357 Sig have more energy than the 9mm. But does that mean that the 9mm is functionally less effective? Just for comparison, here are the 357 Sig and 357 Mag with 125s and the 9mm with a standard velocity load with a 147, the new round the FBI selected. I believe in an actual self-defense situation, they are all about equally effective. (All Speer factory loadings. The product number is displayed) YMMV

38097628396_557a9dcbd8_o.jpg
 
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Those 125 grain 357 magnum loads are very slow. They should be about 100 fps faster for a full magnum load. My 4" Ruger shoots 140 grain bullets faster than those. From the 4" barrel the 140 grain bullets leave the muzzle at 1464 fps average. (and I am a half grain below maximum loads)
 
When 9mm and 357 Magnum are loaded to their upper limits and fired from similar barrel lengths with similar weight bullets, the 357 Magnum is clearly more powerful.

That said, in the real world ( especially where CC guns are concerned) there are circumstances where the gap narrows. For instance... A conversation I had with a guy once who was arguing that his 357 mag was way more powerful than my 9mm. The problem was that in this particular circumstance, I was carrying a full size model loaded with very hot +P ammo, while he had a snub nose loaded with average velocity magnums. After crunching the numbers we concluded that his 357 was throwing a 125 grain bullet at the nearly the same speed that my 9mm was a 124 grain bullet.

When an apples-to-apples comparison is made, 357 is undoubtedly more powerful. But sometimes barrel length and bullet selection make more of a difference that caliber. Sometimes.
 
When 9mm and 357 Magnum are loaded to their upper limits and fired from similar barrel lengths with similar weight bullets, the 357 Magnum is clearly more powerful.
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Therein lies the rub...
Lay a K frame 2 1/2" snub nose on top of a Browning Hi Power.
The two are identical in size, with the edge in thickness going to - the Hi Power being the thinner.

Given the choice of which to carry....

Hands down the Hi Power is the clear winner - - in every respect.
- flatter, easier to conceal.
- 13 rounds vs six
- rate of fire (PLEASE - No Jerry M comments. No one is that accurate at that speed)
- velocity of a 124/125 gr JHP - - 1141 for the .357 mag,,, (Corbon 125 gr DPX - data and recommendation for this load courtesy of Stephen Camp)
-------1190 fps for the 9mm+P.(Remington 125 gr Golden Saber)

I exchanged a few emails and PM's with Stephen about the particular loading he tested and why he liked them. For those that don't know him, Steve was a retired LEO with a gift for writing and delivering facts - no doubt he came by that after having spent so much time documenting information that would be used in court.

Are the two equal?
No -and I don't claim them to be - but - for my purposes ---let's put it this way, I have two Hi Powers, I traded off my S&W M66 - and never looked back.

A couple of points to ponder, first, if hot 9mm Parabellum was "as good" as the 125gr .357 Mag, why was the .357 SIG even created??
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Why is there a ,45GAP? ;). It might just be that SIG wanted to stick their name on something...seriously.....what does the .357 SIG do that the 9mm Winchester Magnum didn't do?

Few people realize how much the 9mm Parabellum has been enhanced since its origin. More development has gone into improving the round's performance in the last 40 years than in the previous 70!
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Same can be said of .44spl, .45 acp, or - just about any hollow point.

I clearly remember the junk bullets back in the 1970's that I used to be saddled with. People take for granted what there is now. That's a much more recent development than most think it is.
 
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OldMarksman said:
The comparison showed the breaking of large monolithic items--blocks, fruits and vegetables --requiring absolutely no accuracy, and at a very slow rate of fire.

In self defense, projectiles must (1) penetrate deeply enough to destroy small critical body elements and (2) actually hit one or more of those elements.

The latter is known colloquially as "shot placement", but in reality, because the critical targets are hidden and are moving fast, success is more serendipitous than a matter of skill or "marksmanship". And then there is the extremely short time available--several shots in one or two seconds.

That boils down to an imperative for a very high rate of controlled fire.

More "bang" just won't help.

There is an excellent, though lengthy, discussion of the topic in this book:


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Thanks, Old Marksman, the book looks interesting and useful to read.

As far as I can tell, "imperative and high rate of fire was not part of the goal of the video, banging bricks was for a visual effect to make a point about the different power in the two calibers. Using the leather, ribs, fruit, etc... looked like a good way to easily give the viewer a chance to see if the chosen bullets performed the way they should in terms of expansion when shot through something resembling a living creature.

Keep in mind, many people in the "Gun culture" do not have your level of expertise or experiences and visual demonstrations like this, and introducing people to real examples of expansion rates and velocity of fired ammunition can only be a good thing.

I shoot at a range and do not currently hunt, so seeing expansion rates and getting a sense of different bullet types and caliber types is always welcome information for me.
 
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JMHO, The 9mm is a pinnacle of efficiency, that's what's kept it around
for over a hundred years. But loadings like +, +P, and +P+ are trying to wring
performance from the cartridge that's not there, to begin with, and the casings
and pistols simply weren't designed for. Some folks may insist they are valid,
but I'm not running ammo that hot thru my guns.

While .357 Mag and 9mm share a similar caliber niche, the .357 is simply more
powerful, and trying to force the 9mm to perform to .357 standards is expensive
and hard on the pistol. Personally, I prefer to embrace the advantage of the
9mm's .38 caliber size, and appreciate it's advantages, rather than borrow the trouble of +p ammo.
 
Rangerrich99,

That was an entertainment video, not a tactically factual video.

If you know how human incapacitation occurs, you'd know that a standard capacity 9MM whips a 6-shot .357 Mag revolver every single time.

BTW, when I have and when I carry a .357 Mag revolver for bipedal self-defense, it's always loaded with the FBI load. Magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit. They do create tactically detrimental consequences.
 
The .357 Mag is the most overrated handgun cartridge for bipedal self-defense. It does prove the 10% tipping point.
 
Magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit.
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I see this bovine feces parroted all over the internet, apparently these folks have never shot any living creatures with both.
 
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