9mm vs. .357 magnum-Myth Busted

[lefteye]

^^^ I don't know if you are responding to my post. In any event, the "power" of a 9mm is not very close to a .357, and I did not suggest that. My point was simply that law enforcement has chosen the extra capacity of 9mm semi-autos vs. the superior power of .357 revolvers. P.S. I do have some firearms experience (a little over 60 years.)

 

[bamaranger]

which?

I was a LEO, and had the circumstances so as to carry a .38/110 +P+, .357/125, then a 9mm/147, and in the end, a .45acp/230. The agency, typically bureacratic and and slow moving, was very late to switch to auto pistols. While I welcomed the arrival of the autopistols, I never really felt undergunned with the revolvers using magnum ammo. I was confident in my ability to shoot it well and handle the gun efficiently, and I was confident in the 125JHP load as a stopper (well as confident as one could be with any handgun round). Not every one shot the magnums well. Nearly everyone shot the 9mm well, and many shot it better. The mild 9mm and the double action autos issued were simply easier guns to shoot well. However, when the opportunity arrived, by policy, to retain the 9mm to or switch to .40/ .45, my observations were that about 75% switched to a bigger caliber. Of that percentage that changed, it was about an even split between .40 and the .45. Yes, we had three different calibers at work. The agency had about 1400-1500 sworn personnel, it may be smaller now due to funding cuts. To my knoweledge, nobody retained the .357 revolver, except maybe those due for retirement in the immediate future.

I never got in a gunfight, but I dispatched a lot of deer crippled by vehicles, and some others , for various legitimate reasons, with all four handguns/loads. Not cinderblock, or gel, but living, bleeding critters. Shooting was done humanely to the cranium/cervical spine safely and efficiently,but when possible, I made extra torso shots as well.

There is no doubt in my mind that the .357/125 was the most destructive round on living tissue. The least impressive was the 9mm/147.

 

[TruthTellers]

One guy, 2 guns proves nothing. I've done the same test My 4" Glock 9mm pistols shooting 124 gr ammo runs 1250-1300 fps. My 4" Smith 28 mag 357 shooting 125 gr ammo runs about 1300-1350. Lots of others have repeated the same tests and got similar results.

You're doing the exact same thing tho, lol. YOUR 4 inch S&W may be totally different than someone elses that causes lower velocity. That's probably something to do with your barrel cylinder gap.

Pick a "fast" 357 and compare it to a "slow" 9mm and you prove the 357 is significantly better. I can pick a "fast" 9mm and compare it to a "slow" 357 and prove 9mm beats 357 mag.

Pick a fast 9mm and there will always be a faster .357 load.

 

[TruthTellers]

I was most surprised by the 2.5 inch SP he tested. Normally when I see the data for a snub .357, it's from an LCR or something with a barrel at 2 inches or less. I guess the extra half to three quarters of an inch barrel length makes a big difference for the .357

 

[MTT TL]

I always compare .38SPC to 9mm, not 357. 357 has always been a different category to me.

 

[Model12Win]

Some of the 125 Buff Bore 357 can get you to 700 ft lbs in a 4" wheeler.

Try that with your G19 and I'll bet the frame cracks or worse.

 

[rodfac]

Nearly everyone shot the 9mm well, and many shot it better. The mild 9mm and the double action autos issued were simply easier guns to shoot well. However, when the opportunity arrived, by policy, to retain the 9mm to or switch to .40/ .45, my observations were that about 75% switched to a bigger caliber.

Very good points, Bamaranger, from one who would know...for police use, capacity would be very important in my opinion...not so much for civilian defensive use.

And I can agree, after 50+ years of .357 experience behind me, that a revolver takes a hellofa lot more training, and follow up practice to build and retain proficiency than a similar sized 9mm auto, or .40 for that matter. Rod

 

[Hal]

This never made much sense to me, as it's pretty easy to eyeball a 9mm cartridge vs. a .357 magnum cartridge, or disassemble one and see the difference in powder charges

Case capacity has little to nothing to do with much in the handgun world - or the long gun world for that matter.

The case of the .357 magnum is larger simply to prevent it from being chambered in an older .38 spl revolver.
The shorter case of the .38 spl is every bit as strong as the .357 case and can hold enough of the right powder to equal the .357 magnum in ever way.

Likewise, the shorter 9x19 can - could in theory - - hold enough powder to push a bullet every bit as fast as a .357 magnum.

It all comes down to what powder is being used - - that's all.

 

[zincwarrior]

I'm willing to bet 17 rounds of 9mm can stop more threats than 6 hot .357 rounds.

Someone with moderate experience will have substantially faster split times with a 9mm than a.357. inversely, it's easy to argue a .357's superiority for carrying vs. wild animals.

Different tools for different uses.

Edit: second me for never having someone compare a 9mm and .357 mag.

 

[HiBC]

I agree that delivering rounds in a controlled fashion may be a critical advantage. I agree magazine capacity may be a critical advantage.
I agree if your Aorta has a hole in it you are dying.
On the morgue slab,any of the combat calibers punches a hole that is roughly the same.
A well placed bullet is lethal,9mm,38,45,357,10mm,40,etc.

I have no argument.

I have not shot anyone. I just have zero experience and I accept that.I'm grateful.

My wild imagination tells me the first three seconds or five seconds after the hit matter the most. A three second disorientation of the bad guy is darn near everything.He is not shooting at me for 3 seconds.In that time,I can mag dump him.
My wild imagination tells me the round that makes the gel blocks bulge,jump,and bounce will PROBABLY be more likely to give me that 3 seconds.I imagine if I were getting hit,a high vel .357 or 10mm or even a hot 38 Super with an expanding bullet would get a bigger "OOOFFFF!!!" and sag out of me. It would be harder to ignore than a 9mm,without doubting the 9mm will kill me in 5 minutes,or an hour.
That's where I lack some confidence in the 9mm. Pew-pew-pew vs Whump-Whump. I'm using a 9mm. But.....

 

[David R]

I understand the 357 has more power. I agree. Always have.

I don't remember the double tap coming out until the 9mm was popular.

Its not a myth. 357 is bigger.

Each caliber and platform have their uses.

Shooting bowling pins with 44, 45 and 357. Along comes Joe with his new wonder 9. 17 cartridges compared to our 6 or 8.

Pins fell over but were not cleared from the table. Extra shots and TIME were used to clear the table.

A good pin shooter uses 5 shots hitting the pins in the right place. This will win the match.

We are not defending our selves against bowling pins or cinder blocks.

David

 

[reddog81]

9mm splits the difference between 38 Special and .357 Magnum. I don't need a video to tell me that.

Some loads are hotter, some guns are faster, but generally we're talking about 900 FPS for 38 Special, 1,100 for 9mm and 1,300 FPS for .357 - All using a 125 grain jacketed bullet. It doesn't take much deduction to figure out .357 is more powerful.

 

[OldMarksman]

I've been hearing about how 9mm is just as effective a round as .357 magnum, at the range, from various Youtube 'experts,' as well as magazine articles, and even on this forum. And when I say 'effective,' I mean energy delivered to target and damage created by bullets.

I have never heard such a claim. Do you have a course for that?

....and interestingly enough, he demonstrated that in fact the 357 can do the same level of damage with less shots than the 9.

That may be interesting, but it is irrelevant to real-world wounding effectiveness.

Someone with moderate experience will have substantially faster split times with a 9mm than a.357. inversely, it's easy to argue a .357's superiority for carrying vs. wild animals.

Different tools for different uses.

Exactly!

 

[KyJim]

I've also never heard anyone claim a 9mm is more powerful than a .357. What I have seen is the argument that a 9mm +P premium self-defense load (Gold Dots, HSTs) from a short barrel have similar terminal ballistic results in gelatin tests. Mr. Harrell actually backs this up with his unscientific pork/watermelon test where he agrees the bullets from both the 9mm and the .357 expanded similarly and penetrated similarly. The 9mm he used did loses their jackets, which is not good, but I've seen many tests where good quality defense rounds have not lost their jackets.

Then, of course, you get into recoil, muzzle flash, ability to reload quickly, and ability to conceal --- all of which favor the 9mm in a compact gun.

 

[44 AMP]

Overload one round and underload another and you can get them pretty close.

(and, make no mistake, anything labeled +p or +p+ IS an overload, just a factory sanctioned one.)

I'm willing to bet 17 rounds of 9mm can stop more threats than 6 hot .357 rounds.

Possibly. Now look at the other side of the same coin...

17 rounds of 9mm endangers more innocent bystanders than 6 hot .357 rounds.

17+1 equals 3 cylinder loads from a revolver (or one from 3 revolvers ), so isn't it fair to say the 17+1 9mm is three times more likely to endanger innocent bystanders?? (or just twice?? )

(no, that's not reality, but it is math...)

And, please, don't try to sell me on the 9mm because its what all the cops are using nowdays. I'm not a cop, and what the cops find best suited to their needs has VERY little to do with mine.

Also remember that being able to shoot faster, easier, and more often does NOT automatically translate into more hits, or hits in the desired stopping zone. It might, but its not a given.

.357 and 9mm, load both the their full potential, compare honestly, and tell me they're "equal"? Not buying that, nor the bridge you'll try to sell me next...sorry.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Comparing two readily available, non boutique rounds like Winchester PDX-1 shows the 357 @ 487 ft. lbs. of energy, and the 9MM +P @ 396. So it is obvious that the 357 Magnum will kill an assailant about 18% deader!

 

[T. O'Heir]

+P+ is about pressure, period.
"...Youtube 'experts,'..." Like Mr. Paul Harrell? Don't get your education from YouTube. It's worse than Wikipedia.
There is no "9mm vs .357 Magnum". Any more than there is a .45 ACP vs 9mm. That the assorted gun rags have been arguing about for 40 years or more.

 

[zincwarrior]

.357 and 9mm, load both the their full potential, compare honestly, and tell me they're "equal"? Not buying that, nor the bridge you'll try to sell me next...sorry.

(note maybe the OP misheard and others were comparing the .357 SIG and certain 9mm calibers, which would appear more applicable).

You have to define equal here.
*total power, .357 would be more powerful. Hence better for hunting or larger animals.

*vs. people. Much more debatable. Its essentially the .45 ACP vs. 9mm debate. The .357 is faster with more kinetic energy. The 9mm has lower recoil allowing faster follow up shots.

If one views one shot stops as a strong possibility then the weight of "better" would be on the .357 round just as one would lean towards .45ACP. If the view is that (for people) one should assume multiple hits will be required, then the 9mm gains the edge.

This ignores the Revolver vs. Semi Auto argument of course.

Me personally?
I prefer the 9mm for self defense as I prefer semis, but a .357 if I were in the country on a hike. When I hiked in California in the mountains I carried a 44 mag for that reason. If I were a revolver shooter then the .357 would be my go to.

Additionally the sweetest, most accurate revolver I ever shot was a .357 python. Minimal recoil and otherworldy accurate for moi. Me likey!
Of course all real men carry 45 long colts...

 

[fastbolt]

I originally carried an issued 4" .357MAG for work, and then over the years after we switched to pistols I carried 9's, .40's & .45's.

The .357MAG loads I favored were 125gr, 140gr & 145gr; for 9's we were given 147gr, 124gr+P & 127gr +P+ at different times; .40 was 165gr & 180gr; and the .45's got 230's of various brands.

While I don't get too wrapped up around the axle trying to "compare" the "power & effectiveness" of different service/defensive calibers, I often roughly equated a standard pressure JHP 9 to a +P .38 Spl; and a +P/+P+ 9, fired out of a service 4" barreled pistol, as almost akin to a snub nose .357MAG (2.5"-2.75", back in the day).

As bamaranger pointed out, though, not everyone among typical line staff could shoot and manage a .357MAG as well as they could a 9 (or a .38 +P). That can matter, especially when things get fuzzy and fast, accurate hits on an intended target may really matter.

Oh yeah, my stubby 3"-3.5" 9's and 2" .38's? I tend to think the 9's, especially when loaded with major maker +P/+P+, push a little deeper into the "velocity" envelope than when using +P in my snubs. Enough to matter? Probably. Maybe. Perhaps.

Now, stuff some .357MAG into the little MAG snubs, and things start to get a little "closer" ...except when it comes to recoil management and controllability. That can be a biggie, though. Since we're past the heydays of the service revolver, there doesn't seem to be a lot of Magnum revolver aficionados, and even skilled and experienced revolvers shooters could sometimes have more trouble shooting the littlest snubs.

This stuff is all more or less a coin toss, though. Different barrels can be faster or slower than others, even within the same model guns (and in revolvers the BC gap might matter). Different boxes or production lots of ammunition may be faster or slower, too. This is unsurprising when you see how some LE contract language may include an allowable "plus/minus" of 50fps from the stated desired velocity. In others words, if the contract calls for a pistol load to produce an "average" 1200fps velocity, as long as any randomly tested loads stay within 1150-1250fps, it's considered acceptable for the contract bid.

 

[reddog81]

While I don't get too wrapped up around the axle trying to "compare" the "power & effectiveness" of different service/defensive calibers, I often roughly equated a standard pressure JHP 9 to a +P .38 Spl; and a +P/+P+ 9, fired out of a service 4" barreled pistol, as almost akin to a snub nose .357MAG (2.5"-2.75", back in the day).

If you want to do a comparison where the results are not definitively known in advance compare a 38 +P load vs a regular 9MM load.

158 grain @ 950 FPS vs 124 grain @ 1100 FPS is much closer than 9mm vs .357.