9mm good for defense???
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Fud,
I understand what you were doing, but my point remains that the 9mm Hydrashok +P+ is, like the Winchester Ranger, LEO only. Both rounds ARE available, but not easily for the majority of people as the other rounds on that chart are.
Maybe that's splitting hares, but I'd really be interested in seeing how the best easily available rounds stack up against each other.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
I understand what you were doing, but my point remains that the 9mm Hydrashok +P+ is, like the Winchester Ranger, LEO only. Both rounds ARE available, but not easily for the majority of people as the other rounds on that chart are.
Maybe that's splitting hares, but I'd really be interested in seeing how the best easily available rounds stack up against each other.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
David Scott
New member
I have a P95, and after a lot of reading I chose 124 grain Speer Gold Dots. Good expansion and penetration for the P95's barrel length, and the bonded bullet means it won't fragment if it hits bone or something. Other rounds may do as well, but that's my pick.
Mike, in simple terms (because I'm not really qualified to go into a lot of detail with regard to this subject), there are two way to look at stopping power ... cause & effect.
One camp, Marshall & Sanow, looks at "effect" by seeing what happens when a certain type of bullet is used and you can see a detailed comparison of dozens & dozens of ammo on their web page. Another camp, the Fackerites, looks at "cause" by seeing what kind of damage is done from different bullet types and you can also see detailed info of various bullets on their web site as well.
I personally think that the Fackerites approach of looking at the damge caused by a bullet makes more sense but it's also difficult to dispute the massive amount of data presented by Marshall & Sanow. I suspect that the truth lies someplace in the middle as a combination of "cause" & "effect".
There have been a number of trends with regard to this topic and if you do a search on "Stopping Power", you'll be able to read the posts which present excellent arguments to support both points of view. As I said in the beginning, I do not have any personal experience in this area and all of the information that I presented is from second hand sources (either from other shooters or from research that I have done). The Best to everyone,
FUD
Share what you know, learn what you don't.
One camp, Marshall & Sanow, looks at "effect" by seeing what happens when a certain type of bullet is used and you can see a detailed comparison of dozens & dozens of ammo on their web page. Another camp, the Fackerites, looks at "cause" by seeing what kind of damage is done from different bullet types and you can also see detailed info of various bullets on their web site as well.
I personally think that the Fackerites approach of looking at the damge caused by a bullet makes more sense but it's also difficult to dispute the massive amount of data presented by Marshall & Sanow. I suspect that the truth lies someplace in the middle as a combination of "cause" & "effect".
There have been a number of trends with regard to this topic and if you do a search on "Stopping Power", you'll be able to read the posts which present excellent arguments to support both points of view. As I said in the beginning, I do not have any personal experience in this area and all of the information that I presented is from second hand sources (either from other shooters or from research that I have done). The Best to everyone,
FUD
Share what you know, learn what you don't.
BrokenArrow
New member
It's as good as you are (or aren't).
Some people will stop better w it than some others will with anything else.
You can get the 115 +P+ and 124 +P+ Hydra Shok from Bluegrass Armory (www.bgarmory.com). The Rem 124 GS +P is just as good, easier to get. Ditto the Proload and Black Hills ammo w 115/124 Gold Dots.
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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
Some people will stop better w it than some others will with anything else.
You can get the 115 +P+ and 124 +P+ Hydra Shok from Bluegrass Armory (www.bgarmory.com). The Rem 124 GS +P is just as good, easier to get. Ditto the Proload and Black Hills ammo w 115/124 Gold Dots.
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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
FUD;
I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question but considering there is so much "bigger is better" talk in this country concerning caliber, why is it that the European community has stuck so fervently with 9mm type pistols. Is it because of the attitude that "shot placement" is paramount?
Frenchy
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Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!
I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question but considering there is so much "bigger is better" talk in this country concerning caliber, why is it that the European community has stuck so fervently with 9mm type pistols. Is it because of the attitude that "shot placement" is paramount?
Frenchy
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Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!
Frenchy,
Europeans realize that pistols are secondary weapons. Many police forces, such as those in Spain and Italy, have the police commonly armed with submachine guns. In places like England, while the foot patrols go about unarmed, special teams can be put in place within minutes. Posse comitatus doesn't exist in Europe, therefore the military, with its greater firepower, is often fielded quickly during police emergencies.
Changing over to a new caliber begs the question, what do you do with the millions of rounds produced for previous pistols? The Customs Service faced the same predicament here in the US, and for this reason despite wanting to go 40, it stayed on with the 9mm.
European countries tend to have national standards for police equipment. Agencies simply don't have the flexibility in choosing equipment like they do here. Therefore US police forces have always led the way in terms of adopting new equipment.
Yet the 9mm is giving way. The 40 is currently being tested in Germany as a possible alternative to the 9mm.
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"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."
Europeans realize that pistols are secondary weapons. Many police forces, such as those in Spain and Italy, have the police commonly armed with submachine guns. In places like England, while the foot patrols go about unarmed, special teams can be put in place within minutes. Posse comitatus doesn't exist in Europe, therefore the military, with its greater firepower, is often fielded quickly during police emergencies.
Changing over to a new caliber begs the question, what do you do with the millions of rounds produced for previous pistols? The Customs Service faced the same predicament here in the US, and for this reason despite wanting to go 40, it stayed on with the 9mm.
European countries tend to have national standards for police equipment. Agencies simply don't have the flexibility in choosing equipment like they do here. Therefore US police forces have always led the way in terms of adopting new equipment.
Yet the 9mm is giving way. The 40 is currently being tested in Germany as a possible alternative to the 9mm.
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"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."
Mike Irwin
Staff
FUD,
I'm well familiarized with the M&S/Fackler disputes. Remember, I participated in some of these while on staff at American Rifleman, and I've also written quite a bit about these debates in my few months here on this forum.
But once again, my ENTIRE point is that your chart shows a 9mm bullet that doesn't isn't an "off the shelf" item for most shooters.
That's my only point.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 27, 2000).]
I'm well familiarized with the M&S/Fackler disputes. Remember, I participated in some of these while on staff at American Rifleman, and I've also written quite a bit about these debates in my few months here on this forum.
But once again, my ENTIRE point is that your chart shows a 9mm bullet that doesn't isn't an "off the shelf" item for most shooters.
That's my only point.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 27, 2000).]
Frenchy, bigger is better when you're talking about FMJ bullets. However, with all of the advances in hollowpoint technology, the BEST bullets (the top one third) in the major calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc.) function about the same with only marginal differences going to one or the other. When you start comparing the average against the average, then the bigger bullets are better.
As to your question with regard to European countries using the 9mm, I asked a very similar question a few months ago as to why some police departments in some European countries still use the .32ACP and they are not worried about being underarmed.
As to your question with regard to European countries using the 9mm, I asked a very similar question a few months ago as to why some police departments in some European countries still use the .32ACP and they are not worried about being underarmed.
Mike, the original chart was meant to show that when comparing the best across the different major calibers, they all perform pretty much the same. Your point being that some of those bullets might not be easily available which is why I posted the links to Marshall & Sanow and The Fackerites so the members could look and compare how all of the different loads compare against each other since I have no way of knowing what is or is not commonly available in what areas of the country. And it would be a waste of time energy & space for me to re-compare the various different bullets against each other when people could just as easily log into the site and do the comparison themselves.
Additionally, I never said that the 9mm was as good as the .45ACP or the .40S&W. I said that when loaded with the best ammo (or, almost the best ammo), there is little difference between the different calibers. Once you start doing down the ladder and comparing average loads in 9mm against .40S&W against .45ACP, bigger becomes better. If I have mislead anyone with my summary chart, I apologize as that was not my intend -- I thought that I made things clear when I said that I was comparing the best loads in each caliber.
Additionally, I never said that the 9mm was as good as the .45ACP or the .40S&W. I said that when loaded with the best ammo (or, almost the best ammo), there is little difference between the different calibers. Once you start doing down the ladder and comparing average loads in 9mm against .40S&W against .45ACP, bigger becomes better. If I have mislead anyone with my summary chart, I apologize as that was not my intend -- I thought that I made things clear when I said that I was comparing the best loads in each caliber.
Covert Mission
New member
Slightly off topic:
Just HOW MANY angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Just HOW MANY angels can dance on the head of a pin?
"1/2 of all recovered bullets are reported to have failed to expand."
Erik:
Was there any further breakdown as to what bullets did not expand? Is a Hydra-Shok at equal risk of not expanding as a simple hp.? Is there a relationship between bullets reliable expansion and mass or velocity? If this is a true of all hp. designs, then the Expanding FMJ looks like the best bet, even with less expansion.
Erik:
Was there any further breakdown as to what bullets did not expand? Is a Hydra-Shok at equal risk of not expanding as a simple hp.? Is there a relationship between bullets reliable expansion and mass or velocity? If this is a true of all hp. designs, then the Expanding FMJ looks like the best bet, even with less expansion.
I figure it sure beats trying to pound on their heads with a stick. I would take the 9 in a good load over a .45 ball anytime but both are not a .357 at all. Some nine loads make the ball .45 look poor on varmits, I realy think the load is more important than caliber here. I have used 115 gr. XTPs for kill shots on large downed elk and it sure impressed me,if it does that to elk I dont want to even think about being on the end of one. 
Common guys,
I've never understood the argument that a .45 is superior to a 9mm or visa versa.
In reality, we are talking about .09 of an inch here (assuming we all agree the 9mm is basically .36 calibre and a .45 is a .45).
Are we to assume that a 9 ONE HUNDRETHS of ONE INCH is going to make that much difference in the scheme of things. Just practice with what you have and get so good it doesn't make a difference.
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
I've never understood the argument that a .45 is superior to a 9mm or visa versa.
In reality, we are talking about .09 of an inch here (assuming we all agree the 9mm is basically .36 calibre and a .45 is a .45).
Are we to assume that a 9 ONE HUNDRETHS of ONE INCH is going to make that much difference in the scheme of things. Just practice with what you have and get so good it doesn't make a difference.
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"By His stripes we are healed..."
PeterGunn
I believe people prefer .45 because it's pretty heavy bullet for a handgun, not because it's 0.09" bigger in diameter. If there was a 9 mm load with 230 gr. bullet,
that would be something...or similar, I can
think about .45 launching it's FMJ at 1,200
fps or so...that would be "magnum force" to
get excited about..
that would be something...or similar, I can
think about .45 launching it's FMJ at 1,200
fps or so...that would be "magnum force" to
get excited about..
I shoot at a home made metal plate rack. The plates are 8" diameter and 1/2" thick. When you hit one with a 9mm it falls over. Hit it with a 40 cal and it falls faster. A hit with a 45 slams it down as if you had hit it with a baseball bat. The velocity doesn't seem to make much difference. Try it, it's impressive.
Sid k
Sid k
Tamara - I too picked a load that didn't beat everything else at the top of either the jello junkies or morgue monsters lists. It just stayed pretty close to the best loads by whatever rubber ruler you use, and no study I've hesrd of says it's deficient in their eyes. Cor-Bon or Silvertip 170/175 at 1270 fps from 4" 41 mag. Far's I can tell, 41 mag vs 10mm is about same as 357 mag vs 357 sig. Except 10mm can use the latest up-to-the- minute 40 cal techno bullets. Oh, I forgot your 10mm got loaded down by the feebs to the 10mm lite, so I guess you must be more hairy chested than the average feeb. As for me, when I quit shooting, my hand stops bleeding.
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