i have a case of the stuff and am thinking of using it for carry in an lc9, it would serve as an up close and personal load. this is federal from a contract that was cancelled. i believe the illinois state police used it for a time being as well. specs are 1350fps out of a duty gun. looking for thoughts and opinions.
90gr. JSP 9mm as a carry load
- Thread starter GUNSNGOLD
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Sheikyourbootie
New member
Seems a little light, and soft points I've fired has crappy expansion into every media I've fired into. There is so much out there that is better in 9mm. jmho
I would not use a 90g bullet for self defense, even at that velocity. It is either going to expand too rapidly and fail to penetrate enough or it if it doesn't expand it will over penetrate and do little damage (tissue destruction) during it's journey.
I do not believe in temporary wound cavities or energy transfer when it comes to handgun bullets stopping. Tissue destruction and blood loss is what stops assailants. YMMV!
Dave
I do not believe in temporary wound cavities or energy transfer when it comes to handgun bullets stopping. Tissue destruction and blood loss is what stops assailants. YMMV!
Dave
Bill DeShivs
New member
They will work just fine. And, your gun won't weigh as much.
It will make a 9MM hole going in no matter what they weigh. Line up a few water filled gallon milk jugs and test fire into them from about 50' away. If you have expansion in water at that velocity they will probably expand in a water bag filled with fat and bones ie. boogerman.
However if it were my gun I would buy a few different types and weights and find out what shoots best, (function and accuracy), then use the 90 grain stuff for range exercise. If you practice seriously and not just popping off rounds by the time you reach the end of that case your defensive shooting skills will have gone up a notch or two and your hand will be intimately familiar with the gun. That helps a lot when adrenaline is high.
Just dos centavos from a dinosaur.
However if it were my gun I would buy a few different types and weights and find out what shoots best, (function and accuracy), then use the 90 grain stuff for range exercise. If you practice seriously and not just popping off rounds by the time you reach the end of that case your defensive shooting skills will have gone up a notch or two and your hand will be intimately familiar with the gun. That helps a lot when adrenaline is high.
Just dos centavos from a dinosaur.
Sharpsdressed Man
Moderator
That was the old Super Vel loading, 90gr @1400fps. I used to use it, and it was devastating on groundhogs back in the 70's, and bullet development is even better now. I think on soft tissue it would do as much dmamage as any .357 mag at that velocity.
Jeff Cooper used to tell a story about an off-duty cop who shot a fleeing armed robber with 90 gr SuperVel. One of the shots hit the guy in the wallet. It didn't penetrate the wallet.
For a civilian, 90 gr ammo would be OK, but only if you're using modern, full-power JHPs. Soft points are too unreliable, IMNSHO.
You can usually find good old 9PBLE (115 gr +P+) online for good prices. It's a proven load, but shooting it in an LC9 might be a little too thrilling for some folks.
For a civilian, 90 gr ammo would be OK, but only if you're using modern, full-power JHPs. Soft points are too unreliable, IMNSHO.
You can usually find good old 9PBLE (115 gr +P+) online for good prices. It's a proven load, but shooting it in an LC9 might be a little too thrilling for some folks.
Sharpsdressed Man
Moderator
I don't think MY wallet would stop a 90 grainer at 1400 fps. 
Maybe I'll grab some old credit cards and give it a try. Isn't it funny, but a 90 grainer in a .380 or Makarov round is o.k., but if it is going 400fps faster in a 9mm, it's too light?
Maybe I'll grab some old credit cards and give it a try. Isn't it funny, but a 90 grainer in a .380 or Makarov round is o.k., but if it is going 400fps faster in a 9mm, it's too light?This particular 90 gr bullet is the same one that Federal used in a 9mm law enforcement round 30 years ago. Google will reveal that it was not well thought of and will show that there is a question about this round's pressure level. I have shot a few hundred rds of it ande had no issues.
"Isn't it funny, but a 90 grainer in a .380 or Makarov round is o.k., but if it is going 400fps faster in a 9mm, it's too light?"
And who said a .380 is O.K. for a defensive gun with any bullet? No thank you! With the size and weight of today's 9 mms and even .45s, why carry a .380?
And who said a .380 is O.K. for a defensive gun with any bullet? No thank you! With the size and weight of today's 9 mms and even .45s, why carry a .380?
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I keep remembering that some police officer friends of mine (also armorers and trainers, not just street cops) prefer the subsonic 147gr version of 9mm. I can't think of any reason to be shooting a .380 Auto bullet through a full-fledged 9mm pistol.
I'm with DepOne. Many of my students were surprised to find blow back 380s kicked as much (were as hard to control) as 9mms. I see no reason to trust your life to a 380 or anything in that power range. The "placement is everything" crowd disagrees but the properly placed bullet still has to get inside to the important stuff.
Dave
Dave
You don't specify what brand your ammo is so I can't say too much.
I bought 1000 rounds of Radway 90 grain JSP with the same idea. Found out it is NOT what I want for carry ammo. The jacket peels off in about 4" and the core keeps going for another 15-18" making a neat little hole. This out of a 4" barrel but I haven't chronied the stuff.
I bought 1000 rounds of Radway 90 grain JSP with the same idea. Found out it is NOT what I want for carry ammo. The jacket peels off in about 4" and the core keeps going for another 15-18" making a neat little hole. This out of a 4" barrel but I haven't chronied the stuff.
While I won't say that what you've got is a bad loading, I too would be hesitant to trust my life to something that so little is known about.
sub-100gr 9mm loadings don't have the best track record in the world as, with JHP's, they usually expand violently and/or fragment at the expense of adequate penetration. Conversely, JSP's don't have a particularly good reputation against people as they typically expand little, if at all, in upright bipeds.
It is possible, I suppose, that perhaps the combination of a 90gr 9mm with a JSP bullet might work OK as the increased velocity possible with such a light bullet might facilitate rapid expansion while the less-aggressive bullet expansion might alleviate the typical retardation in penetration. I would not, however, count on this hypothesis as JSP's at similar higher velocity than that you cite (1350 really isn't all that fast for a 90gr 9mm) still have reputations for lackluster penetration. Such loadings include the 125gr .357 Magnum and 180gr .44 Magnum JSP loadings from most major U.S. ammo makers as well as the 100gr 9mm +P+ JSP loading from Hirtenberger.
The Hirtenberger loading in particular is quite interesting because, as I understand it, the point of the JSP bullet was not expansion in soft tissue but the prevention of ricochet when striking hard targets like car bodies and pavement. As a side note, I've shot that particular Hirtenberger loading in both a Sig Pro 2009 and CZ-75B and it was among the most accurate 9mm ammo I've ever fired.
Basically, I agree with others that you'd be better off to simply load your gun with a proven 115-147gr JHP like Winchester Ranger, Winchester PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, Federal Hyrda-Shok, Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dot. Use the 90gr JSP's for the range.
sub-100gr 9mm loadings don't have the best track record in the world as, with JHP's, they usually expand violently and/or fragment at the expense of adequate penetration. Conversely, JSP's don't have a particularly good reputation against people as they typically expand little, if at all, in upright bipeds.
It is possible, I suppose, that perhaps the combination of a 90gr 9mm with a JSP bullet might work OK as the increased velocity possible with such a light bullet might facilitate rapid expansion while the less-aggressive bullet expansion might alleviate the typical retardation in penetration. I would not, however, count on this hypothesis as JSP's at similar higher velocity than that you cite (1350 really isn't all that fast for a 90gr 9mm) still have reputations for lackluster penetration. Such loadings include the 125gr .357 Magnum and 180gr .44 Magnum JSP loadings from most major U.S. ammo makers as well as the 100gr 9mm +P+ JSP loading from Hirtenberger.
The Hirtenberger loading in particular is quite interesting because, as I understand it, the point of the JSP bullet was not expansion in soft tissue but the prevention of ricochet when striking hard targets like car bodies and pavement. As a side note, I've shot that particular Hirtenberger loading in both a Sig Pro 2009 and CZ-75B and it was among the most accurate 9mm ammo I've ever fired.
Basically, I agree with others that you'd be better off to simply load your gun with a proven 115-147gr JHP like Winchester Ranger, Winchester PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, Federal Hyrda-Shok, Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dot. Use the 90gr JSP's for the range.
chris in va
New member
Yeah, it's great seeing all these suggestions for compact 380's on the market, yet the 90gr at 1350fps is looked at as unuseable for SD.
I wouldn't want to get shot by any of them.
I wouldn't want to get shot by any of them.
A defensive handgun cartridge must have a bullet designed for the velocities at which it is likely to encounter a threat.
The bullet must penetrate a minimum of some number of inches. Some shooters require 12", some 14" and still others want 18". A bullet which expands to more than twice its starting frontal area upon impact with soft tissue might fail to penetrate even 12".
For example, a .356" diameter bullet expands to 0.65" on impact over three times it starting frontal area (.0973 sq. in. compared to 0.3318 sq. in.); the energy needed to push through tissue is that much greater than the undeformed bullet. Thus the energy is more quickly dissipated and the penetration is less.
The bullet must penetrate a minimum of some number of inches. Some shooters require 12", some 14" and still others want 18". A bullet which expands to more than twice its starting frontal area upon impact with soft tissue might fail to penetrate even 12".
For example, a .356" diameter bullet expands to 0.65" on impact over three times it starting frontal area (.0973 sq. in. compared to 0.3318 sq. in.); the energy needed to push through tissue is that much greater than the undeformed bullet. Thus the energy is more quickly dissipated and the penetration is less.
Stressfire
New member
That seems a little light for a 9mm.
Target ammo is typically at least 115. I, personally, wouldn't go up to a 147 as in my view it defeats the main advantage of the 9mm - speed.
However, a .380 weight projectile fired from a 9mm sized charge would definitely give you some speed. From there its just a matter of over- or under penetration.
Some testing would definitely be in order before I would load it in my 9
Target ammo is typically at least 115. I, personally, wouldn't go up to a 147 as in my view it defeats the main advantage of the 9mm - speed.
However, a .380 weight projectile fired from a 9mm sized charge would definitely give you some speed. From there its just a matter of over- or under penetration.
Some testing would definitely be in order before I would load it in my 9