8x57 Ackley?

[F. Guffey]

I think you missed the entire point of the article. Al is promoting the use of highly polished chambers and reducing case to chamber friction.

I have no infatuation with greasing my bullets, I do not want anything between the chamber and case but air, I do not want a lot of air but a little air has been know to reduce pressure because it takes time for it to get out of the way.

And then there is the air, I want clean air, I do not want dirt, grit or grime. And then there is the surface of the chamber, I want my chamber to have a mirror finish, logic says 100% is better than 90%, that also goes for my dies. When I clean my dies with a towel on a dowel I do not want to change to a white towel when determining when my dies are clean.

100% contact between my disc rotor and pads does not benefit from cross hatching, same goes for drums; drums do not benefit from course spiral cuts, spiral cuts will cause a strange sound and cut the life expectance to a few days in heavy traffic.

I know, slide and glide shooting is cute. I do not find it necessary because I am a case former, I form first then fire. And then there are those that want to reinvent/rediscover, that is good; that brings up the shoulder of the case. I am not going to jump out in the fast lane and reinvent the events that take place between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. I say the shoulder of the case does not move; reloaders have spent their entire life saying the shoulder moves. I could say something like; "think about it", but that does not work, before thinking about it reloaders are already pounding away at the keys on the key board.

Rediscover? Has anyone ever marked, painted or scribed the shoulder on a case before starting. I have; I did not have to but when forming cases I was getting artifacts on the formed cases that I did not believe should be there. I have never assumed the shoulder moved, I assumed the shoulder of the case was erased and become something else and the shoulder on the case after forming was a new shoulder. I always make the distinction when sizing and forming I am increasing and or decreasing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, I never say "I am moving the shoulder back", and then there is 'bump', bump is a function of the press; it was a function of the press before social media. Back then when a press bumped it bumped twice because bump presses were cam over presses.

For years reloaders have claimed the case has head space and they purchased tools that were comparators thinking they were purchasing head space gages. Again, the case does not have head space and every tool is not a head space gage.

And then there was Hatcher. When someone builds a rifle and then has problems the first piece of information they omit is the make of the receiver.

F. Guffey

 

[Slamfire]

Guffey has been building old military Mauser actions using belted magnum cartridge cases and he still does not understand why two of his converted actions cracked their bolt lugs. I believe a combination of incompetence and narcissism prevents Guffey from accepting the fact he is at fault, we can tell that he does not understand the problem, and instead, creates a fantasy absolving himself from his failures. Rightfully he is afraid of bolt thrust for the rifles he builds, but since Guffey is so incompetent that he does not know he is incompetent, he does not realize that the problem is the combinations he creates by combining inappropriate actions, cartridges, and pressures. In short, Guffey is a quack gunsmith.

Reloading 303 british for no4 enfield

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582496&page=2&highlight=mauser

And then? I have two bolts that failed, one with the lugs sheared off and one with cracked lugs. Both were in Mausers with the third lug on the bolt. Without guessing I concluded not all Mauser bolts can be opened up for all magnums

In Europe, at least, all firearms have to go through a proof house before sale. Proof Houses do more than simply fire 30% over cartridges, they gage the weapon, check the function of its features, and if it fails in any regard, it cannot be sold. Here in the US, all buyer can do is go by reputation and ask questions before using a Gunsmith. If the gunsmith cannot do even a first order analysis of why certain actions are inappropriate for belted magnum conversions, walk away.




Doctors were unregulated in this country for a very long time, till the general public got tired of medical quackery and instituted educational and licensing requirements to limit the damage caused by medical quacks. However, in this country, there are no educational, training requirements for an individual to call himself/herself a "gunsmith". Any fool can call himself a gunsmith . The only way to regulate quack gunsmiths is after the fact, after the Kaboom . Gunsmiths, incompetent or not are considered manufacturers, they are expected to have more than just a working knowledge of materials, structures, and product liability applies to them, just as in any other manufacturing profession.


With every rifle Guffey builds, Guffey should provide the buyer a printed card. One side should have the phone number of the nearest emergency room and the other side a good liability attorney. Guffey is responsible for building safe products, and every customer of his should know that if the belted magnum Mauser conversion they buy from him kabooms in front of their face, that they have the option to sue Guffey for everything he has, and everything he will every have. This will have the positive effect of getting Guffey out of the business, and with his computer gone, the web will be improved for the better.

 

[Dufus]

I believe that you just broke rule #3.

 

[F. Guffey]

I have no infatuation with greasing my bullets,

Back to the shoulder and moving: I asked if anyone has ever scribed the shoulder locations, if anyone wants to reinvent reloading start with scribing the shoulder/neck juncture and the shoulder/case body juncture first; and then form a 30/06 case to 8mm57 to determine what happens to the 30/06 shoulder. Your mileage will not vary, the shoulder of the 30/06 will become part of the neck and shoulder, the shoulder on the formed case will be a new shoulder formed from part of the case body and part of the old shoulder.

F. Guffey

 

[HiBC]

This would be the rule #3 dufus referred to:

3. No spamming, trolling, flaming, invective or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor. If you take issue with a Member's position, by all means speak your mind. If you have a problem with a Member's religion, national origin, sex, politics, associations, or personal hygiene, then take it to email.

The long rant to discredit/dismiss Guffey was off topic and probably a violation of rule 3.
But I'm not a Moderator.

I have had my moments with Mr Guffey!

For myself,I prefer to chamber with a good,sharp reamer.I use good practice cutting the chamber with that reamer.Anything less than excellent tool finish is failure.
I typically do not polish chambers.Very few people understand how to approach polishing a chamber. If you approach polishing a chamber where the first step is spinning the barrel in the lathe at high rpm and putting something abrasive in the chamber that is cutting lines in the same direction as the tool marks,you may be doing it the way you were taught,but I was trained by a Master mold and die finisher. You cross the marks you re trying to remove.
In the simplest form,its called "draw stoning" and the strokes would be in line with the length of the chamber.

With all due respect to the 300 H+H,a great venerable cartridge,the case design is based in large part on loading with stick cordite as a propellant.
A count of sticks were loaded into basic brass,then the shallow shoulder was formed.Because the shallow shoulder was not a reliable headspace feature,the magnum belt we know and love was added.
For reliable cycling in death defying circumstances,generous head clearance was provided from belt to chamber.(In the neighborhood of .006)

And so,YES! Stretch rings occur. Reloading case life was hardly the point.

If greasing anachronistic case designs is a workaround for a problematic cartridge,well,to each his own. P.O.Ackley took a different approach.The modern reloader has tools and methods to minimize case stretch .
As are methods to minimize fouling from cupro-nickel bullets.

In the same respect,a number of techniques,lubes,and tricks are used to make Black Powder Cartridge Rifles to perform..very well!

But we don't use much deer tallow and bear fat to make a 6.5 Creedmoor shoot these days.

I'm not sure how much 1930's Ordnance Dept knowledge regarding blowback and semi-blowback technology applies to locked breech guns.

And I really do not understand what any of this has to do with my original answer to Ireaload2's question.

Its an irrelevant soap box presentation of a very seldom used pet technique.

Slamfire,use it! Enjoy! If it works for you,great!

You won't find it in any loading manual,lubed ammo is not recommended,and it just has nothing to do with the mainstream conversation about what happens to a cartridge case when the trigger is pulled.

And while I do not deny,a lot of milsurps have been "sporterized" to all manner of rifles,if you will review the custom rifle photos in the vintage "Gun Digests" many very fine gunsmiths made very fine rifles on milsurp actions.

Slamfire,your wholesale condemnation of a great period of Firearms Amercana is just insulting to a lot of very fine craftsmen.

And on the notion of "regulating " gunsmiths.....

Are you suggesting we need more of unelected agency bureaucrats writing regulations with force of law to limit what professional and hobby gunsmiths can do??? What level of firearms ,gunsmithing,engineering,and metallurgical expertise may we DEMAND of these bureaucrats before the may be hired to fill a position?
Or would you prefer the ones who ,as we see as "talking heads" on television make cringe worthy ridiculous statements about firearms...as if they were proud of their politically correct ignorance?

You,of course,are entitled to your desire for more restrictive firearms regulation...But I am opposed. I favor being able to create a receiver from raw steel as my own needs and creativity see fit.

Slamfire,as you have expressed,you ARE aware of a consensus that greasing/lubricating ammo and chambers is ill advised.I understand,you vehemently disagree.Thats OK. I support your FREEDOM.

Based on the published advise in loading manuals,magazine articles,etc...What might these "regulators" you suggest write regarding controlling the "potentially dangerous practice of greasing ammunition". Do you think your same regulatory standards should be applied to what YOU do?

 

[Jimro]

Slamfire,

It's important to talk about sheering lugs off a Mauser bolt. That is a failure of a bolt, which in itself is not a failure of the receiver. In fact, the two front failing is the reason for the third "safety lug" in the first place.

As the Mauser action and bolts in the military surplus realm come from a very wide variety of manufacturing sources, with even more manufacturing practices, it is very true that you can get some pretty obvious failures.

The other point, is that those failures aren't a design flaw, they are a manufacturing flaw. There is nothing unsafe about a properly manufactured Mauser 98 action and bolt. But if the receiver is soft, even with milspec 8x57 you'll see lug setback and headspace growth as a result.

So your warning to get to know your receiver (and bolt) before sporterizing is sound advice. But it shouldn't stop anyone from building on a good quality M98/K98 action.

Jimro