Since almost every other cartridge that has ever exsisted has been tried with a 40 degree shoulder, how come I never heard of the good ol' Mauser getting a dose of Ackley? Or maybe it is in Ackley's Handbooks and I just need to get 'em ........or even better, a 30 degree shoulder, slightly more parallel case walls and a slightly lengthened neck.....
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8x57 Ackley?
- Thread starter KYE-OAT
- Start date
What I really can't figger out....
.....is why this ain't been done? I mean, a person could fire-form brass from Rem/Win factory loadings in the "Improved" chamber, so no special brass or elaborate case-forming maneuver needs be accomplished.....
Now, I know out of all the wonderous wildcats conceptualized, the performance of something like a 8mm Ackley would not exactly shake things up, but I still have trouble believing that foaks hadn't tried it. There's another advantage, for those of us not equipped to rebarrel & chamber (never mind the cost of a new barrel).....use the factory barrel.
Anyone familiar with this and appropriate loads?
.....is why this ain't been done? I mean, a person could fire-form brass from Rem/Win factory loadings in the "Improved" chamber, so no special brass or elaborate case-forming maneuver needs be accomplished.....
Now, I know out of all the wonderous wildcats conceptualized, the performance of something like a 8mm Ackley would not exactly shake things up, but I still have trouble believing that foaks hadn't tried it. There's another advantage, for those of us not equipped to rebarrel & chamber (never mind the cost of a new barrel).....use the factory barrel.
Anyone familiar with this and appropriate loads?
Jim Watson
New member
I looked in Ackley. No mention of an 8mm AI there. Apparently the usual thing to do in the 1945 - 1968 era of surplus Mausers was rechamber to 8mm '06. Plenty of data for that in cheap USGI brass.
Also, in a sound '98 you can load 8mm Mauser to European specs instead of the SAAMI loads which are basically the old 8mm Remington Special meant to not be too hard on '88s and pre 'S' 98s.
Accurate Arms has a separate table for that, as 8x57 JS. Is a 150 gr spitzer at 2900 fps enough? (Their top load for 8mm '06 is a 150 at 3100.)
Also, in a sound '98 you can load 8mm Mauser to European specs instead of the SAAMI loads which are basically the old 8mm Remington Special meant to not be too hard on '88s and pre 'S' 98s.
Accurate Arms has a separate table for that, as 8x57 JS. Is a 150 gr spitzer at 2900 fps enough? (Their top load for 8mm '06 is a 150 at 3100.)
Okay, I'll go along with.....
.........the '06 case, since noones ever done the 8x57 Ackley......but while we are on the subject, I looked at Huntingtons and they list a 8mm-'06 Ackley.....my question is which books (including Ackley's Handbook-which I still don't have)
OR reloading manuals contain this wildcat 8mm-'06 AI ? I am considering this angle hard as well. The Mauser I have is a Large Ring.......but I would still be interested in the pressures that 8mm-'06AI would produce. Thanks Jim.
.........the '06 case, since noones ever done the 8x57 Ackley......but while we are on the subject, I looked at Huntingtons and they list a 8mm-'06 Ackley.....my question is which books (including Ackley's Handbook-which I still don't have)
OR reloading manuals contain this wildcat 8mm-'06 AI ? I am considering this angle hard as well. The Mauser I have is a Large Ring.......but I would still be interested in the pressures that 8mm-'06AI would produce. Thanks Jim.
Unkel Gilbey
New member
Go with the 8mm-06...
Back in my old neck of the woods, the 8mm-06 was a very popular wildcat for quite a few years. There were many surplus Mausers around, tons of 30-06 cases, and the desire to use those rifles for deer.
As it was much before my time, I'll be darned if I know what they did for bullets (pulled 32 special tips???), but there were more of these 8mm's back there in the NE than you could shake a stick at. Maybe cast bullets were being used? Who knows?
The fact that RCBS still stocks a set of dies for this caliber (and don't charge an arm and a leg for them) means that this conversion must have been extremely popular. Stepping up to the AI version would seem to be a logical step - if you're looking for more power...!
Still, custom dies are pricey. Either way you go - 8x57AI or 8mm-06AI, you'll have to get those custom dies. But you'll have a fire breather, that's for certain.
Good luck!
Unkel Gilbey
Back in my old neck of the woods, the 8mm-06 was a very popular wildcat for quite a few years. There were many surplus Mausers around, tons of 30-06 cases, and the desire to use those rifles for deer.
As it was much before my time, I'll be darned if I know what they did for bullets (pulled 32 special tips???), but there were more of these 8mm's back there in the NE than you could shake a stick at. Maybe cast bullets were being used? Who knows?
The fact that RCBS still stocks a set of dies for this caliber (and don't charge an arm and a leg for them) means that this conversion must have been extremely popular. Stepping up to the AI version would seem to be a logical step - if you're looking for more power...!
Still, custom dies are pricey. Either way you go - 8x57AI or 8mm-06AI, you'll have to get those custom dies. But you'll have a fire breather, that's for certain.
Good luck!
Unkel Gilbey
archeratlrg
Inactive
8mm wildcats
Couldn't help myself here, had to jump in when I saw the thread. I have both the 8mm AI and the 8mm-06 AI and am happy as a clam with both of them. The 8mm AI is a wicked little round and with a 160 Gr. Barnes TTSX I'm spitting them out over 3100fps. With the 8mm-06 AI, I'm getting over 3200fps with the same bullet, however I usually shoot 180 to 200gr. bullets in it. I've never recovered a bullet from any elk I've shot with either of them and highly recommend both. The 8mmAI can be shot out of the intermediate length Mausers where the 06AI version needs a standard length action. You won't be disappointed with either. You can pick up dies for the 8mm-06AI on ebay usually for less than $100, but my dies for the 8mmAI from Redding ran around $160. Both of my rifles shoot under 1/2 inches but the 175 gr. Sierra has always given me my best groups. Good luck and good shooting
Couldn't help myself here, had to jump in when I saw the thread. I have both the 8mm AI and the 8mm-06 AI and am happy as a clam with both of them. The 8mm AI is a wicked little round and with a 160 Gr. Barnes TTSX I'm spitting them out over 3100fps. With the 8mm-06 AI, I'm getting over 3200fps with the same bullet, however I usually shoot 180 to 200gr. bullets in it. I've never recovered a bullet from any elk I've shot with either of them and highly recommend both. The 8mmAI can be shot out of the intermediate length Mausers where the 06AI version needs a standard length action. You won't be disappointed with either. You can pick up dies for the 8mm-06AI on ebay usually for less than $100, but my dies for the 8mmAI from Redding ran around $160. Both of my rifles shoot under 1/2 inches but the 175 gr. Sierra has always given me my best groups. Good luck and good shooting
Could be as a holdover from WW2 some folks had too many 8x57's fly at them.Stuff like that matters to folks.
IMO,the 8x57 AI makes perfect sense.Mag box length is just a little shorter on the Mauser.Sure,you can make it work,but heavier bullets in an 8mm-06 COULD be loaded longer in a longer mag box.
With a little smaller case and a little larger bore,any gain in case capacity will be a bonus.
IMO,it might be one of the better AI candidates.
I know there is no practical reason to do it,but necking the 8mm case to .338 and AI ing it is fun in the imagination.It might fling a 210 gr Nosler pretty good.Put it in a Yugo...
IMO,the 8x57 AI makes perfect sense.Mag box length is just a little shorter on the Mauser.Sure,you can make it work,but heavier bullets in an 8mm-06 COULD be loaded longer in a longer mag box.
With a little smaller case and a little larger bore,any gain in case capacity will be a bonus.
IMO,it might be one of the better AI candidates.
I know there is no practical reason to do it,but necking the 8mm case to .338 and AI ing it is fun in the imagination.It might fling a 210 gr Nosler pretty good.Put it in a Yugo...
archeratlrg
Inactive
Since my last post I have opened up the 8 x 57 AI to both 338 and 35 and gone the other direction as well from 6mm all the way up. I decided to call this family on the 8mm improved case, the Ackley Super Improved as the shoulders start out farther forward than the AI cases formed on the 7x57 mauser. This is a family of snorters and in the 338 and 35 I'm actually doing the same or better than the 338-06 and 35 Whelen on a shorter platform. My 6mm improved is running 3300 with the 100gr bullet. Not too bad! Any thoughts?
Good for you!!
I can understand sentiments left by history.
Example,one CAN look at an SKS carbine as a pretty decent utility "volksrifle"
But then Veteran of Southeast Asia may not be able to stomach owning one.
Post WW2 the metric cartridges,and particularly the 8 mm,just did not have a warm fuzzy place in the American Shooter's heart.
I think that may be why the 6.5's have only had moderate acceptance.
Pete Brown's enthusiasm for the 7x57 may have warmed it a bit.
No need to discuss the 30-06 family,a great parent case,and great cartridges.
There is no reason the 8x57 should not be appreciated as a parent cartridge.
Component distribution matters.Here in the US,30-06 brass was cheap and available,more like free and easily put to use.
8x57 was less available and often berdan or corrosive.
Today,the fact that 30-06 brass is so popular leads to "Out of stock,no backorder"
8x57 brass is less of a disadvantage.
I'm not knocking the 8mm06.Fact is,the 30-06 mag box is longer than a 98 Mauser.
Military ball 30-06 ammo is too long for a 98 mag.
So,sure!!The handloader can shove the bullet deeper in the case.
It works.And,sure!!A commercial 30-06 length Mauser mag.guard can be found.
But there is not a darn thing wrong with using the brass he rifle was designed for,and no reason to not do everything that was done to the 30-06 to the 8x57.
I'll never do it,I'm getting too old and have better things to do,but IMO,a 338x57 AI ....Maybe in a Yugo or Brazillian short 98,would be an excellent hunting cartridge loaded with 210 gr Nosler Ballistic tips.
I would expect powders from 4895,Varget,4064,Re-15 etc would perform very well.
Have fun!!
I can understand sentiments left by history.
Example,one CAN look at an SKS carbine as a pretty decent utility "volksrifle"
But then Veteran of Southeast Asia may not be able to stomach owning one.
Post WW2 the metric cartridges,and particularly the 8 mm,just did not have a warm fuzzy place in the American Shooter's heart.
I think that may be why the 6.5's have only had moderate acceptance.
Pete Brown's enthusiasm for the 7x57 may have warmed it a bit.
No need to discuss the 30-06 family,a great parent case,and great cartridges.
There is no reason the 8x57 should not be appreciated as a parent cartridge.
Component distribution matters.Here in the US,30-06 brass was cheap and available,more like free and easily put to use.
8x57 was less available and often berdan or corrosive.
Today,the fact that 30-06 brass is so popular leads to "Out of stock,no backorder"
8x57 brass is less of a disadvantage.
I'm not knocking the 8mm06.Fact is,the 30-06 mag box is longer than a 98 Mauser.
Military ball 30-06 ammo is too long for a 98 mag.
So,sure!!The handloader can shove the bullet deeper in the case.
It works.And,sure!!A commercial 30-06 length Mauser mag.guard can be found.
But there is not a darn thing wrong with using the brass he rifle was designed for,and no reason to not do everything that was done to the 30-06 to the 8x57.
I'll never do it,I'm getting too old and have better things to do,but IMO,a 338x57 AI ....Maybe in a Yugo or Brazillian short 98,would be an excellent hunting cartridge loaded with 210 gr Nosler Ballistic tips.
I would expect powders from 4895,Varget,4064,Re-15 etc would perform very well.
Have fun!!
Today,the fact that 30-06 brass is so popular leads to "Out of stock,no backorder"
8x57 brass is less of a disadvantage.
As someone who was looking for 8X57 brass during the last shortage, I would disagree with this. For the US manufacturers, 8X57 is a "sometimes" production item, and I expect when they are busy they would rather devote production to higher demand options. I haven't seen Rem or Win 8mm Mauser brass available in years. PPU is generally available now, but for a while the only thing you could find was Norma, at ~$1.50 each.
Jim Watson
New member
Post WW2 the metric cartridges,and particularly the 8 mm,just did not have a warm fuzzy place in the American Shooter's heart.
I confess.
I once passed on a nice Brno Model 21 Mannlicher because it was in 8mm instead of 7mm or .30.
I also passed on a rather weird and wonderful Haenel Sporter 9.5, too.
I do not know, I have the 7mm57 Ackley reamer and the 257 Roberts Ackley reamer. I built a 7mm57, it is a most accurate rile, Had I built it for me It would have been an Ackely Improved. Normally I will not build anything unless I have the dies.
Both the 257 Roberts and 7mm57 benefit when chambered to the Ackley chamber.
F. Guffey
Both the 257 Roberts and 7mm57 benefit when chambered to the Ackley chamber.
F. Guffey
Why not consider the 338-06. A robust range of bullets from 180-250.
I started on that one then I got to thinking. I chambered the barrel to 280 Remington, that gave me a 338/280 Remington: but before I started I located a 280 Remington Ackley Improved chamber reamer.
It took 3 set of die to come up with a combination of dies that would get me there.
F. Guffey
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Please understand,my point is not to badmouth any of the fine cartridges being discussed.
There is a small point some seem to overlook.Its minor.Its not a deal breaker.
Any of the combinations work.
I understand the OP's point of using the 8x57 case.
I have built 30-06 rifles on 98 Mauser actions.
Fact: The military Mauser mag box is shorter than the 30-06 standard mag box.
Its not a big deal,SAAMI max LOA for 30-06 is 3.340,and for 8x57 its 3.250.
You seat the bullets a little deep.Or,find and pay for a commercial Mauser 30-06 mag/guard.
It will work either way.Its only .090
Interesting,SAAMI max LOA for 8mm-06 is 3.250.Makes sense,as the cartridge is for converting 98 Mausers.
Interesting to note Case head to shoulder dim on 8x57 is 1.933.
Case head to shoulder dim for 30-06 is 1.948. Wow.A whopping .015 more boiler room for the 30-06.
Which tells me the 8x57 AI will actually have more case volume(slightly) than a standard 30-06.
Everyone can enjoy their favorites!!
I agree with the OP that the 8x57 brass is underappreciated for the 98 Mauser.
Sure,8mm-06 works and its good.Sure,338-06 works and its good,though SAAMI max LOA is 3.440 or the .338-06 A-Square.
If a person has an 8x57 Mauser with a shooting bore,why complicate things with a 30-06 reamer?
If you want to rebarrel,What would be wrong with necking the 8x57 brass to anything you want?The 8x57 necked down to 7x57 has the shoulder further forward with a shorter neck.What would be wrong with a 30 x 57?
Or,as the OP suggests a .338 x 57?
I DO understand why some folks would prefer 8mm-06 or .338 -06 for THEMSELVES. Enjoy!!
But why is there so much deflection of the OP's idea? "Make an 8mm-06!!,or MAKE a .338-06!!!
His parade was about the 8x57 case,and good,useful cartridges that can be made from it. Why rain on it? Hands down,I'd go for an 8x57 myself over an 8mm-06.And I bet with a powder like RE-15,or IMR4350,4064,an honest chronograph won't show much difference.We argue 30-06 against .308.
We accept the .308. 8x57 vs 8mm-06??Limited to 3.250 LOA? Splitting hairs.
IMO,if you are working with a 98 Mauser, every chance you get,work WITH it,not against it.
Like 6mm versus .243.Like 6.5x55 versus .260. .257 Roberts,7x57,or 7x57 AI..30x57.8x57, .338x57,9x57..versus .358.
You will fight it less,and have a reliable feeding rifle with a minimum of work.
There is a small point some seem to overlook.Its minor.Its not a deal breaker.
Any of the combinations work.
I understand the OP's point of using the 8x57 case.
I have built 30-06 rifles on 98 Mauser actions.
Fact: The military Mauser mag box is shorter than the 30-06 standard mag box.
Its not a big deal,SAAMI max LOA for 30-06 is 3.340,and for 8x57 its 3.250.
You seat the bullets a little deep.Or,find and pay for a commercial Mauser 30-06 mag/guard.
It will work either way.Its only .090
Interesting,SAAMI max LOA for 8mm-06 is 3.250.Makes sense,as the cartridge is for converting 98 Mausers.
Interesting to note Case head to shoulder dim on 8x57 is 1.933.
Case head to shoulder dim for 30-06 is 1.948. Wow.A whopping .015 more boiler room for the 30-06.
Which tells me the 8x57 AI will actually have more case volume(slightly) than a standard 30-06.
Everyone can enjoy their favorites!!
I agree with the OP that the 8x57 brass is underappreciated for the 98 Mauser.
Sure,8mm-06 works and its good.Sure,338-06 works and its good,though SAAMI max LOA is 3.440 or the .338-06 A-Square.
If a person has an 8x57 Mauser with a shooting bore,why complicate things with a 30-06 reamer?
If you want to rebarrel,What would be wrong with necking the 8x57 brass to anything you want?The 8x57 necked down to 7x57 has the shoulder further forward with a shorter neck.What would be wrong with a 30 x 57?
Or,as the OP suggests a .338 x 57?
I DO understand why some folks would prefer 8mm-06 or .338 -06 for THEMSELVES. Enjoy!!
But why is there so much deflection of the OP's idea? "Make an 8mm-06!!,or MAKE a .338-06!!!
His parade was about the 8x57 case,and good,useful cartridges that can be made from it. Why rain on it? Hands down,I'd go for an 8x57 myself over an 8mm-06.And I bet with a powder like RE-15,or IMR4350,4064,an honest chronograph won't show much difference.We argue 30-06 against .308.
We accept the .308. 8x57 vs 8mm-06??Limited to 3.250 LOA? Splitting hairs.
IMO,if you are working with a 98 Mauser, every chance you get,work WITH it,not against it.
Like 6mm versus .243.Like 6.5x55 versus .260. .257 Roberts,7x57,or 7x57 AI..30x57.8x57, .338x57,9x57..versus .358.
You will fight it less,and have a reliable feeding rifle with a minimum of work.
Interesting to note Case head to shoulder dim on 8x57 is 1.933.
Case head to shoulder dim for 30-06 is 1.948. Wow.A whopping .015 more boiler room for the 30-06.
WOW! A WOPPING WHAT!?
I suggest you read some of my information: I hope you did not allow the material I furnished provoke you.
Years ago prolific posters were claiming the firing pin drove the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber etc.. Then there were those that started with “Hatcher said etc..” I have always said that was the beginning of a very boring conversation. Not because of what Hatcher said but what reoaders thought he said.
The part you chose to ignore: I said I chambered 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm/06 chamber and then pulled the trigger. According to your math I fired a case in a chamber that had .015” clearance. My math indicated .125” clearance.. Then there is that other part you choose to ignore: I said the shoulder on the 8mm57 case did not move. I know, that is something that is very difficult to get the mind around. But if you go back to the firing pin driving the case to the shoulder of the chamber: Had that happened the case would have had case head separation. Now go back and read the part where I said the shoulder did not move meaning the shoulder on the fired case was not there before I pulled the trigger and the old shoulder became part of the case body.
If there was any truth in your math I would have fire formed a minimum length 8mm06 case to a field reject length chamber plus .002”. Adding to the part where you choose to ignore: I have an Eddystone M1917 with a chamber that has an additional length of .016” from the shoulder to the bolt face, for me that is not a problem. I adjust the die off the shell holder .014” then size 280 Remington case to 30/06. The 280 Remington case is longer than the 30/06 from the shoulder to the case head by .051”. For those that can keep up when I adjusted the die off the shell holder .014” I got the magic .002” bump?
Bump? Bump sounds like an accident, there is nothing I do that is an accident. I do use a feeler gage when going for the .002”.
F. Guffey
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Keeping up: I moved the shoulder forward .125” when I went to the 8mm06, and then?
I went to the 280 case that added .051”. According to my math I added .125” + .051”. Then there is that part about the length of the trigger guard. I said I purchase 4 suspect rifles for $25.00 each. They were suspect because of the length of the box.
F. Guffey
I went to the 280 case that added .051”. According to my math I added .125” + .051”. Then there is that part about the length of the trigger guard. I said I purchase 4 suspect rifles for $25.00 each. They were suspect because of the length of the box.
F. Guffey