84 rounds fired at murderer, 14 hits and he's still alive:

So at the range, making use of cover, I would have thought that officers would shoot slower and better pick their shots. Also, the suspect was within the cops trainging rage and the officers outnumbered the suspect. and so they had the upper hand which should have afforded better shooting. Apparently, my thought was wrong.
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Unfortunately adrenaline is much stronger than training for most people. Standing and throwing bullets at paper doesn't equal training. Most officers really don't recieve considerably more than that. The average officer's yearly training is about equal to an NRA Defense Outside the Home course with a dash of retention. Then they get a day of active shooter training.

Until an officer is tested in the heat of fire there is no true understanding of how they will react.
 
DNS: While there may be few times when supressive fire is useful for police, the vast majority of law enforcement situations are not those times. In fact, supressive fire may injure the very public that the police are supposedly protecting. And every bullet has a lawyer attached....and an out-of-court settlement paid with taxpayer funds....
 
Maybe they should have called in artillery fire, the guy they were firing at was using this:

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I have never been in a gunfight with small arms. Havng said that let me say that as fighter pilot in Vietnam I learned early on that when divebombing, it is much wiser to take an extra few seconds to aim carefully on the first pass despite the fire coming against you. Because if you don't hit the gun/gunner the first time you have to try it again. Mathematically that means that you are exposed to enemy fire for at least as long as the carefully aimed attack as you will be to go into the dive bomb attack again, and possibly again.

And extra second or two improves your odds significantly. Remember that time compresses in the heat of battle
 
All about shot placement. 14 hits with a rifle would not have changed the outcome if those hits where not properly placed. Just like a properly placed .22 could have ended the confrontation with 1 bullet.
 
DNS: While there may be few times when supressive fire is useful for police, the vast majority of law enforcement situations are not those times.
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Right, and I never said otherwise. However, the original claim was that it was a military tactic requiring full auto guns and that cops don't carry enough ammo. Without know the specific history, I would not doubt that it is a tactic orignal to the military, but otherwise, it can be useful to the cops, does not require full auto, and the ammo quantity isn't particularly relevant. Obviously, with the more ammo you have, the longer you can provide suppressive fire, but otherwise there is no quantity standard.

As you note, the vast majority of the time, this tactic would not be useful for the cops. I agree completely. That leaves the small amount of time when it is. From what is seen from various cop battles, it is used only in very limited number of situations....but is used.

And every bullet has a lawyer attached....and an out-of-court settlement paid with taxpayer funds....

In fact, supressive fire may injure the very public that the police are supposedly protecting.
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And every shot fired by the police has the potential to harm the public. Suppressive fire can be controlled and aimed so as to reduce said risk. With that said, police use of suppressive fire does not seem to be for the purpose of protecting the public in most cases, but protecting the cops in immediate danger.
 
Suppressive fire can be controlled and aimed so as to reduce said risk. With that said, police use of suppressive fire does not seem to be for the purpose of protecting the public in most cases, but protecting the cops in immediate danger.
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On that, we agree.....the public is just on their own, I guess....the public....& the lawyers....
 
I don’t believe for one minute that it was a suppressive fire.. It was mad shooting much like the vietnam mad minute...

Poor shooting skills with a weapon that has less than stellar out of the box trigger and sights and lack of training and lack of critical thinking... Sounds like classical inexperience with an at best average gun thrown in the mix...
 
This is actually a fairly funny scenario. I can actually picture myself in this firefight...and after I hit the suspect I don't know...4-5 times and he's still standing and shooting back, I think after that point I would probably go a little bullet crazy to trying to take this guy down.
 
1st is another case of a 9mm just not getting it done. 2nd if he would have been hit in the boiler room with a .40 or .45 with good hollow points it would have been game over. I bet the hits were NOT in the boiler room. If some were then that points to #1. A shotgun would have put an end to it in short order with slugs or buckshot.
 
1st is another case of a 9mm just not getting it done. 2nd if he would have been hit in the boiler room with a .40 or .45 with good hollow points it would have been game over. I bet the hits were NOT in the boiler room. If some were then that points to #1. A shotgun would have put an end to it in short order with slugs or buckshot.
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The issue wasn't that the cops didn't have enough gun or enough caliber, despite Farnam's claims that the distance was too great for pistols. As with the Lubbock SWAT folks, people can often miss just as effectively with long guns as they can with handguns.

Going with .40 or .45 over the 9mm would not have made any difference except that the cops likely would have either had less ammo (but same number of mags) or would have to have made more reloads, but still shot just as crappy.
 
Hmm... 84 rounds fired at one suspect. That's as many rounds as the ENTIRE German police force fired last year.

I think a shotgun with OO-buck would have been far more effective. At 21 meters through an 18-inch cylinder barrel the spread would have been about human torso size.
 
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See Lubbock SWAT 2001. We have some threads here and you can google it. 369 rounds fired, 3 people hit with 1 killed and 2 wounded after responding to a call about man who might be suicidal who was burning belongings from his house in the yard (apparently, most of his wife's stuff after they had fight).
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A similar situation happened in Utah, last year.

A 'Narcotics Strike Force' was performing a drug raid. A shot was fired just as the entry team was to breech the door of the suspect's house. One of the entry team members went down. Everyone opened up on the house to suppress the suspect's fire.

5 additional officers were wounded by friendly fire. The officer that went down was named Jared Francom. He did not survive. He took a round to the back of the head, courtesy of another team member that couldn't control his trigger finger.

The suspect was found armed, hiding in the house, but never fired a shot. The police agencies involved, however, continued to villainize the suspect for weeks. Last I heard, the State was still trying to find a way to stick murder charges to the suspect for the officer's death, even though the suspect never fired a shot and all wounded parties were hit by friendly fire.... :rolleyes:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53237543-78/officers-ogden-officer-police.html.csp

The real fallout from this incident, though, is that Utah police agencies are using his death to push for more no-knock warrants... and they're winning. :mad: ...a subject of its own, but worth mentioning.
 
Frankenmauser,

I just noticed that the link you provided says nothing about the officers/officers being hit by friendly fire. I don't doubt it... but would love to read the "other" side of the story if there is one somewhere....
 
Frankenmauser,

I just noticed that the link you provided says nothing about the officers/officers being hit by friendly fire. I don't doubt it... but would love to read the "other" side of the story if there is one somewhere....
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I haven't seen an official source that says this either, but fratricide does appear to be a possibility based on the information available, or lack of information. They do appear to be trying to saddle responsibility for the injuries and death on Stewart, whose house was raided, but haven't come out and said specifically that Stewart shot any of the 6 cops which is unusual, especially after all this time. Most of the accounts of Francom's death state that he was shot during the raid, not that Stewart shot him.

You would think that the doctors had recovered at least on bullet from the 6 officers that were shot and could match it to Stewart's gun, but after 4 months, not such claims are being made by the cops.

Here is a vid from one of the responders. It has graphic language, so not work or family friendly. The second link provides more information and validates the first link as being from the incident.
http://www.fugitive.com/2012/04/12/...m-killed-5-officers-wounded-caught-on-camera/
http://fox13now.com/2012/05/19/report-gives-new-insight-into-fatal-officer-involved-shooting/

There seems to have been quite a few shots gapped over a long period of time.

As an aside, note the officer shot in the hip who fell down the stairs to the basement and then ran back upstairs. Obviously, the shot to the hip did not take him out of the battle or stop his mobility.
 
I’m sorry but if one officer shoots another officer and the BG fires no rounds and apparently wasn’t even near the door as they entered and that’s where this guy was shot I don’t see how you can charge him with murder.. Especially if the BG never fired a round.

Knock less warrants are just plain wrong... Get a bunch of people rushing in to someone’s house unannounced is a great way to get someone hurt or killed... I always try to treat officers with respect, and would try to help them in an emergency if it meant saving a life or preventing serious injury I would do what I could so long as it was apparent that the officer was in distress or would likely die if I didn’t intercede. I never want to be a police officer or attempt to be one but they are valuable servants of the community and deserving of our support.

I know many people are negative on police but the bottom line is they are there when you need them and they come in all types of weather, rain, snow or shine and no one calls you to come to a birthday party its always a negative situation..

They have my respect and gratitude even if I may disagree with the attitudes of one individual or another...

I just can imagine the situation where someone is startled awake as they raid a house (potentially even the wrong house) and the owner initiates self defense against a mass of unannounced intruders... It will be a sad day for everyone..
 
Hmm... 84 rounds fired at one suspect. That's as many rounds as the ENTIRE German police force fired last year.

Best quote of the year so far... and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.



The NYPD does not have a dedicated patrol rifle, but there are units within 15 minutes response time with rifles, shotguns, tear gas, and a bunch of other neat stuff.

Perfect. Just like for the average citizen, when seconds count the police are just minutes away... even for other police.



The Lubbock fiasco only goes to show that firearms are indeed dangerous if they are held by the wrong hands.


<sigh>



Willie

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