84 rounds fired at murderer, 14 hits and he's still alive:

A 16% hit rate. Not bad I suppose for the average cop .Some departments are more concerned with community relations than intensive training .Ten years ago a study of hit probability in the NYPD in actual shootouts it was 10% !! But in the revolver days it was 20% !! So rapid fire is still done rather than aimed fire .
BTW, some years back I took Farnam's course . It was fantastic and I was amazed at how much I didn't know .:eek: I only wish I could persuade more shooters the importance of really good training.
 
Cant be a true story... everyone knows anyone shot by the ultimate 2 x 4 gun falls dead prior to the round even being fired. :D
 
Crud, I use the same setup the NYPD does: Glock 19 with 124 gr. 9mm +p Speer Gold Dots. I'm suddenly feeling less adequate.
 
I think it was Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, who put it well.
When he was asked what would he consider the best choice for effective fire power, he replied, "An Air Strike."
 
I got a hunting buddy that gives me crap about not using enough gun on hogs. Of course, he always used enough gun, or maybe not. Shooting 12ga slug at a deer is enough gun, right? Of course it is, except when you actually miss the target and shoot the feeder instead. How much is enough gun for a miss?

I am not sure that the officers using "enough gun" would have changed things dramatically. Misses are misses and poor shots are poor shots and the officers didn't exhibit much in the way of proper control. The G19 is a proven performer and certainly is "enough gun" when shots are properly landed. In looking at various articles on the story, it looks like shooting distances were between 10-15 feet and 70 feet depending on the various accounts.

Prior to trying to put a cap in the cops, the suspect had killed his sister and shot his mother.

No doubt rifles, shotguns, or pistol caliber carbines would have helped the officers get shots on target, but the officers did have enough gun to start with, but not enough marksmanship. The failure here isn't with the the gun.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201..._cops-shot-critical-condition-harlem-hospital
http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Pa...PD-Cops-Fire-84-Rounds-at-Murder-Suspect.aspx
http://gothamist.com/2012/04/25/cops_fired_84_times_at_man_who_kill.php

From the OP's link...
Had those two officers been armed with an AR, PTR, XCR, SIG/556, OBR, M1A, or some other flavor of 223, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 6.8Spc, 300Blk, 30Carbine, et al military rifle, they could have easily ended this fight with the expenditure of only one round, certainly no more than three.
Click to expand...

The same could be said for the G19s. The fight certainly could have been ended with 1-3 rounds.

Even with plain-vanilla iron sights, much less precision optics, hitting this animated suspect at 21m would be amply easier than trying to do the same thing with a pistol, any pistol!
Click to expand...
Absolutely true, but the issues isn't about enough gun. It is about application of enough gun. Use enough gun, properly.

I do like how this fight was considered a gun battle. The suspect did fire a single round a the cops. So when you have both sides shooting, it is a battle and not just a shooting.

A 16% hit rate. Not bad I suppose for the average cop
Click to expand...

You know, 16% really isn't all that good either. However, the hit rate might have been much less. The following article states that there were 14 entry and exit wounds. Potentially, Marray may have been hit by 7 through and throughs.
http://gothamist.com/2012/04/26/harlem_shooting_4.php
 
Heres what new york police trainers should do. Stay with the same firearm but remove the stupid NY trigger job of a 8 or 12lb sa pull. Its simple keep your finger off the trigger until you need or have to fire. Step 2, more training. My dad was a police officer for 20 years and a rangemaster at his dept. he had enough pull to test and pick new guns and ammo for the dept. he trained constantly and was a great shot. being a good shot comes down to daily training. its not somethin you gain and then can sit on the shelf.
 
Every once n' awhile someone will post about the NYC trigger like it's some great thing.

The NYC trigger, IMO takes an already horrible Glock trigger and makes it worse.

I don't know where this guy was hit but I don't think getting hit in non-vital areas with a .40 is significantly worse than getting hit in non-vital areas with a 9mm.

And as far as the misses go - I think people are assuming the gunman just stood there and shot it out with the officers, he could have been moving, using cover - being a whack-a-mole - we don't know.
 
I'm a skeptical as well. All those misses with a handgun some how translates to a 3 round fight with a rifle? In most urban environments a handgun is more practical. Just issuing a rifle is no guarantee they will train more than with the pistol.

What would be more likely as a little range time with the rifle and less with the pistol. Ending with proficiency in neither.
 
The G19 is a proven performer
Click to expand...

No pistol is a death laser... Horrible accuracy rate... is it truly the poor skill of the officers shooting (no disrepect to the officers as officers) or is it a combination of poor skills and not so great a trigger and sights? Thats a lot of bullets to expend and not calm down and shoot with more accuracy at some point. My point being there is more to a gun than reliability sometime sights that are worth more than a nickle helps as does a reasonable trigger.

I dont know... It would be fun to see tested in some scientific way would a different brand of gun led to better accuracy in a stress condition.
 
I gota say that's a pretty low percentage of hits, and 84 rounds fired total!? I suspect they did a good deal of pointing the gun around the car they used for cover and unloaded. I would rather slow down and take 10-20 shots and hit my target then take 84 wild shots and hope I hit. For one to protect innocent bystanders from getting hit from stray rounds, conserving ammo, and more quickly and efficiently eliminating the target. If your job entails you to carry a firearm, the least you can do is become proficient with it. I have a couple buddies who are cops and an uncle who is also an LEO and I shoot more often and better than the lot of them. It amazes me how some people go into the profession of law enforcement and do not practice and hone critical skills needed to safely do their job. I'm sure there are plenty out their who disagree with me, but the numbers don't lie.
 
9mm is more economical to shoot. NW
Click to expand...

Not always, Dobblenaught. Way to many stories of pistol fire not getting the job done even when shots were in "the zone". Too many factors involved--even with good ammo.

Good pistol courses, including Farnum's, emphasizes that you shouldn't be surpised if your hits don't solve the problem immediately. That's why we keep shooting until it's over.:)
 
As a paramedic I have taken care of patients with gunshots of all flavors. I had a drive-by victim take a 9mm fmj in the arm pit and follow the rib around the chest and lodge under his pectoral muscle. No vital dmage despite being hit in the zone. I have also had dead patients from .22lr self inflicted to the head. I know this is just one case, but to me the 9mm is not a proven performer. I understand that some people are recoil sensitive and more rounds are better and so on but I will stick to a little more gun and better bullets. IMHO the smaller calibers sufer from under penetration due to the bullets they use. A 38 +p with 158gr SWC cuts holes instead of relying on blunt force. I am not saying the 38+p is better than a 9mm. I will stick to my .45acp.
 
The linked article indicated the suspect was behind cover, and active, at 21 yards from the officers.

I have no trouble accepting that hit percentages would be lousy for typical shooters in those conditions, particularly if they thought they were taking fire.

I also suspect that in such a scenario, I would choose my AR with EOTech 552 over any handgun.
 
It is easy for any of us to say that the reason the fight was not stopped earlier was due to a plethora of reasons. Well I have a news flash for those that think this rifle, or that shotgun are the end all. The human body is a lot tougher than you may think. I have as a medic seen men that were hit in the chest with hunting caliber bullets from deer rifles. They lived. Two actualy walked out of the house they were shot in. Yes they did drop in the yard. I personaly survived a 12 Ga to the chest from less than 6 feet. It did not knock me down, or even backwards. It spun me forward as a matter of fact. Due to more miracles than I care to go into I lived to learn a lesson.

Besides it unknown if the suspect was on drugs. That can make a huge difference.
 
Don't they issue shotguns to the NYPD? That's what I woulda been reaching for in that scenario.

Anybody claiming that hitting a bad guy pointing a handgun at you from twenty yards away in the dark with adrenaline pumping is an easy shot is sadly mistaken. A 16% hit ratio is pretty good considering the baby-killer wouldn't go down after multiple bullets striking him. He was probably tweaked on coke, meth, or pcp. Cop's worst nightmare
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top