rdavidsonjr
New member
Several recommending the vortex viper I would like to hear how it compares on optic brightness and clarity compared with a Leupold vx 2&3. Also what type recticle are available?
800 yards under $1,200?
- Thread starter silverstang23
- Start date
FiveInADime
New member
I can't comment on how bright the Viper optics are compared to the VX2 and 3 because I haven't looked through any newer Leupold scopes in field conditions but I can say that the Viper PST 4-16X that I tried out was very good. The biggest benefit to the Viper line is great turret and reticle options if you ask me. They listened to what their customers wanted and delivered. You can get capped or target style turrets and ffp or sfp reticles. The PST I tried had the ffp EBR-1 MOA reticle which I liked very much. The Viper line and the SWFA SS line are the most recommended budget, true-to-form long range scopes that I know of.
precision_shooter
New member
Chimney stack about 120yds away. Both scopes set to 12x.
Leupold VX2 4-12x40
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Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44
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Leupold VX2 4-12x40
Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44
handlerer2
New member
I currently own Nikon Monachs, 3x9 and 4x12, a Viper PST 6x24 ffp, I can't see any real difference in the glass. The Vortex has better features, IMO. My eyes aren't what they were 40 yrs ago either.
It would not surprise me to find out that they all use the same glass.
The quality of scopes has improved a great deal since the '70's. I still have a Weaver K-6, I bought in 1976, and it as functional now as was then, but even my tired eyes can see the improvement in glass, in todays optics.
Nothing wrong with your rifle choice, although it wouldn't be my first, although it was my first centerfire magnum rifle, MDL 700 ADL, 7mag. I found it at a going out business sale at Gibson's dept store. It was sitting in a rack starting to rust. I got for about $100 including tax.
I think rifles have improved much since then. The best I was ever able to get was 1.5", five shot group, handloads and factory at 100yds. That was considered respectable back then. We all used to shoot five rd groups at that time.
The Vanguard,300WBY, that I bought my son in '07, surprised me with it's accuracy. The factory target is about .7". My son can shoot much closer to that than I can. Grr! It's not that easy to shoot a 300WBY consistently from the bench, at least for me. But my son, all 130lbs of him goes with it and has never flinched.
It's hard to really go wrong with any of the suggestions. Just find an optic with the features you want. They all have great warrantys these days. All of mentioned brands anyway.
It would not surprise me to find out that they all use the same glass.
The quality of scopes has improved a great deal since the '70's. I still have a Weaver K-6, I bought in 1976, and it as functional now as was then, but even my tired eyes can see the improvement in glass, in todays optics.
Nothing wrong with your rifle choice, although it wouldn't be my first, although it was my first centerfire magnum rifle, MDL 700 ADL, 7mag. I found it at a going out business sale at Gibson's dept store. It was sitting in a rack starting to rust. I got for about $100 including tax.
I think rifles have improved much since then. The best I was ever able to get was 1.5", five shot group, handloads and factory at 100yds. That was considered respectable back then. We all used to shoot five rd groups at that time.
The Vanguard,300WBY, that I bought my son in '07, surprised me with it's accuracy. The factory target is about .7". My son can shoot much closer to that than I can. Grr! It's not that easy to shoot a 300WBY consistently from the bench, at least for me. But my son, all 130lbs of him goes with it and has never flinched.
It's hard to really go wrong with any of the suggestions. Just find an optic with the features you want. They all have great warrantys these days. All of mentioned brands anyway.
Attachments
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rdavidsonjr
New member
Thanks for the pictures and input. Looks like I need to check out the viper ! I am about ready to start looking for a scope for either my 300 or 7 mag. Though I had seen the viper advertised I never had the opportunity to try one or get any input to the quality issue. Also several suggested the 7mm-08 through out this post which was my second choice for my purchase last year for a deer rifle behind the 25-06 I got. I don't have one but I have always thought the ballistics for distance , hog and deer type shooting looked very good.
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Can someone explain to me the difference on the viper scopes???
I mean I find viper pst 6.5-20 50mm scopes with a 30mm tube from $400 then go to a similar 6-24x50mm with a 30mm tube and be up to $750-$1000
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-riflescopes-vpr-m-06fp.html
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-6-24x50-rifle-scopes.html
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-hs-6-24x50-riflescope.html
What are the major differences to a newb on these three, are they both adjustable for elevation and windage on the fly, ie you can dope the scope for the shot?? Other differences??
I mean I find viper pst 6.5-20 50mm scopes with a 30mm tube from $400 then go to a similar 6-24x50mm with a 30mm tube and be up to $750-$1000
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-riflescopes-vpr-m-06fp.html
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-6-24x50-rifle-scopes.html
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-hs-6-24x50-riflescope.html
What are the major differences to a newb on these three, are they both adjustable for elevation and windage on the fly, ie you can dope the scope for the shot?? Other differences??
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A couple of questions.
1. Why are you trying to take game at up to 800yds? Are you positive you can make a clean kill at that range?
2. It doesn't matter how much you spend on a high end scope if you expect it to make any shot count. Do you already have long range experience in calculating wind drift, ambient temp. and a sundry of other variables?
Here's a ballistics chart that shows a 32 ft. drop at 800yds. using factory ammo. You will have to be able to hold over that much and most scopes don't have that much adj. available. http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
Good luck to you an I hope you figure it all out.
1. Why are you trying to take game at up to 800yds? Are you positive you can make a clean kill at that range?
2. It doesn't matter how much you spend on a high end scope if you expect it to make any shot count. Do you already have long range experience in calculating wind drift, ambient temp. and a sundry of other variables?
Here's a ballistics chart that shows a 32 ft. drop at 800yds. using factory ammo. You will have to be able to hold over that much and most scopes don't have that much adj. available. http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
Good luck to you an I hope you figure it all out.
Blackop2, thats funny, but the Vortex Viper Hs 4-16x 44 I checked out yesterday was as bright but clearer and had more magnification that any VXIi Ive ever checked out.
To the OP, you can find a used rifle in .308, 7mm, 30-06, .260 alot of the short mags, that'll reach that far...
Dont skimp on glass, bases, rings, and quality ammo. Practice until you get what your lookin to obtain.
To the OP, you can find a used rifle in .308, 7mm, 30-06, .260 alot of the short mags, that'll reach that far...
Dont skimp on glass, bases, rings, and quality ammo. Practice until you get what your lookin to obtain.
I don't think that the OP is trying to take game at 800 yards but he is looking for a gun that will both shoot targets at 800 yards and shoot game at typical hunting distances. At least that's how I read it.
Trouble is that he's going to end up with a compromise for both goals unless he decides to focus on one goal and take what he can get for the other.
I'd like to ask the OP how often he'll be hunting versus long-range (or mid-range to some people here) target shooting. If the honest answer skews heavily toward one or the other, optimize your choice for that and take what you can get on the other.
I suspect that many people can get to the range more often than go hunting, which is too bad because the OP's budget lends itself more to a hunting rig versus a long-range target rig.
I'm a Tikka fan but Savage seems like the leader in best performance for the price right now so I'd look at a hunting rig with a Savage in .308 and a Vortex/Nikon/Leo scope. If you want to try to cover both bases you could move up to a 300 Win (the other cartridges are better choices if he reloaded) but that's not ideal for both either.
Best of luck,
B
Trouble is that he's going to end up with a compromise for both goals unless he decides to focus on one goal and take what he can get for the other.
I'd like to ask the OP how often he'll be hunting versus long-range (or mid-range to some people here) target shooting. If the honest answer skews heavily toward one or the other, optimize your choice for that and take what you can get on the other.
I suspect that many people can get to the range more often than go hunting, which is too bad because the OP's budget lends itself more to a hunting rig versus a long-range target rig.
I'm a Tikka fan but Savage seems like the leader in best performance for the price right now so I'd look at a hunting rig with a Savage in .308 and a Vortex/Nikon/Leo scope. If you want to try to cover both bases you could move up to a 300 Win (the other cartridges are better choices if he reloaded) but that's not ideal for both either.
Best of luck,
B
fire, I have both the 6.5x20 PA and the 6x24 PST scopes and I like both of them. Both have good ranges for windage and height adjustments as well as parallax adjustments. I have used both of them shooting 308 at 300, 600 and 1000 yards and they both worked well at those distances.
Obviously the PST has 24X magnification, compared to 20X for the PA. The PST also has an illuminated reticle while the PA does not.
Is the PST worth the extra $300 compared to the PA? Not sure, depends on your budget and what you are looking for in the scope.
Obviously the PST has 24X magnification, compared to 20X for the PA. The PST also has an illuminated reticle while the PA does not.
Is the PST worth the extra $300 compared to the PA? Not sure, depends on your budget and what you are looking for in the scope.
1Hobie said:
1. The OP never stated he was trying to take game at that range. He said:
silverstang23 said:
To me this meant that he wanted a rifle capable of getting to 800 yards at a range, but something he's still able to hunt deer and hogs with.
2. The OP's original post pretty much implied that he didn't have the experience to shoot 800 yards, but was wanting the equipment to help get him there. It's a lot easier to shoot LR with good equipment and learn how to get there, than to use a mediocre setup.
1Hobie said:
Depends on the ammunition used, .308 Winchester 168 grain Federal Gold Match only drops 220.9" in 800 yards 221/12=18.4' of drop from a 100 yard zero.
1 MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards, so 8X1.047=8.367" is 1 MOA at 800 yards. 221/8.637=25.5 MOA of drop at 800 yards. If you start thinking in MOA (or MIL is using those adjustments) instead of inches and feet it makes LR shooting so much easier. Most 30mm scopes have around 70-75 MOA of adjustment so you'll only use about 1/3 of the adjustment to get to 800 yards. 1" scopes are usually around 50 MOA so you'll need half, that is why canted bases are usually needed with the 1" tube scopes and the .308 Win.
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"I'm looking to get to 800 yards under $1,200. I'm thinking I want a 308. I'm mostly a sport shooter but want something to take hog and deer hunting with friends. What are your recommendations?"
He never stated his precise intentions and mentioned hunting but nothing to indicate otherwise. There are those out there that would try taking game at that distance, so I just asked for clarification, that's all. I did mis-read the ballistics on the round an indeed using the bullet mentioned, the round does only drop 18+ feet. But, factor in a crosswind of only 5 miles an hour steady then you have to adjust your windage 3.5 feet and hope that the wind doesn't change.
I totally agree with all the input. I own a 700 PSS that's been tuned by a professional and respected gunsmith in our area. Boring to shoot at 100 yds.
My intentions were not to intimidate the OP. Just to clarify his objective.
Hobie
He never stated his precise intentions and mentioned hunting but nothing to indicate otherwise. There are those out there that would try taking game at that distance, so I just asked for clarification, that's all. I did mis-read the ballistics on the round an indeed using the bullet mentioned, the round does only drop 18+ feet. But, factor in a crosswind of only 5 miles an hour steady then you have to adjust your windage 3.5 feet and hope that the wind doesn't change.
I totally agree with all the input. I own a 700 PSS that's been tuned by a professional and respected gunsmith in our area. Boring to shoot at 100 yds.
My intentions were not to intimidate the OP. Just to clarify his objective.
Hobie
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Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Well, first off, I don't understand the "want something to take hunting .... with friends" part because no one hunts at 800 yards - no one with any ethics, that is, and almost no one period, youtube vids notwithstanding.
Chambering. You can do a lot, LOT better than .308. .308 win is fine of course, but many chambering choices are better past about 600: Take your pick: .260 rem, 6.5x55, 6.5-.284 norma, 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, .280 rem, .280 rem AI, 6.5-'06, 7mm-08...even .270 Win beats the hell out of .308 win in drop and drift, all other things being equal (if you can achieve that, meaning equally accurate rifle build and ammo).
Note that you did say hunting (nevermind that I don't understand the hunting and loooong range statement), so that's why I recommend a 7mm or 6.5mm for hunting - because .30 cals have a better bullet selection for long range (high-BC bullets) for TARGET bullet choices, with 7mm bullets a close 2nd place; whereas in HUNTING bullet selections, the opposite is true: 7mm bullets have a slight edge in the BC dept over .30 cals in properly constructed hunting options. Really I'd go with a 7mm over a 6.5mm for hunting; just a lot more bullet choices for a hunting performer (though granted there are a few in 6.5).
Rifle - this is obviously the most important part, and since we're talking about a budget, we're talking factory. Since we're talking factory, we're excluding custom. Since we're excluding custom, the chambering and rifle choice are all wrapped up together, since we have limited factory options.
That leaves us with a Savage in 6.5-284 Norma. Or a Savage in .260 rem or 6.5 creedmoor perhaps. Or even .243 win, 6mm rem, or 6mm BR.
You did say hunting, so we want to stay light or medium-light if possible, However, it appears that now, the only model offered by Savage in 6.5-284 is the "12 F Class", but that is one heavy dude, way heavier than anything remotely reasonable for hunting. We need to stay at 10.25 lbs bare or less, let's say, to meet your criteria.
I just don't think you can "get there from here" new. You're asking for everything - light weight, low price, and supreme accuracy - can't be done in a new rifle - you can pick any two but not three. About the closest you're going to come to getting what you want is a Savage "12 VLP DBM" in .243 Win. .308 win, or .300 WSM, or a Savage "12 LRPV Left Port" in 6mm BR.
So the answer is go used until you find a steal on a custom - scan Gunbroker - do what I do- Browse for the category "bolt action rifles", then use simply the word "custom" as your search. Check it weekly. Some accurate choices in nice chamberings will come along. There's no guarantees on accuracy, but with the right questions, a little knowlege and insight, and a smidge of luck, you can get what you want, if perhaps not on the first try (never know when you might get a lemon custom off of GB or similar).
Chambering. You can do a lot, LOT better than .308. .308 win is fine of course, but many chambering choices are better past about 600: Take your pick: .260 rem, 6.5x55, 6.5-.284 norma, 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, .280 rem, .280 rem AI, 6.5-'06, 7mm-08...even .270 Win beats the hell out of .308 win in drop and drift, all other things being equal (if you can achieve that, meaning equally accurate rifle build and ammo).
Note that you did say hunting (nevermind that I don't understand the hunting and loooong range statement), so that's why I recommend a 7mm or 6.5mm for hunting - because .30 cals have a better bullet selection for long range (high-BC bullets) for TARGET bullet choices, with 7mm bullets a close 2nd place; whereas in HUNTING bullet selections, the opposite is true: 7mm bullets have a slight edge in the BC dept over .30 cals in properly constructed hunting options. Really I'd go with a 7mm over a 6.5mm for hunting; just a lot more bullet choices for a hunting performer (though granted there are a few in 6.5).
Rifle - this is obviously the most important part, and since we're talking about a budget, we're talking factory. Since we're talking factory, we're excluding custom. Since we're excluding custom, the chambering and rifle choice are all wrapped up together, since we have limited factory options.
That leaves us with a Savage in 6.5-284 Norma. Or a Savage in .260 rem or 6.5 creedmoor perhaps. Or even .243 win, 6mm rem, or 6mm BR.
You did say hunting, so we want to stay light or medium-light if possible, However, it appears that now, the only model offered by Savage in 6.5-284 is the "12 F Class", but that is one heavy dude, way heavier than anything remotely reasonable for hunting. We need to stay at 10.25 lbs bare or less, let's say, to meet your criteria.
I just don't think you can "get there from here" new. You're asking for everything - light weight, low price, and supreme accuracy - can't be done in a new rifle - you can pick any two but not three. About the closest you're going to come to getting what you want is a Savage "12 VLP DBM" in .243 Win. .308 win, or .300 WSM, or a Savage "12 LRPV Left Port" in 6mm BR.
So the answer is go used until you find a steal on a custom - scan Gunbroker - do what I do- Browse for the category "bolt action rifles", then use simply the word "custom" as your search. Check it weekly. Some accurate choices in nice chamberings will come along. There's no guarantees on accuracy, but with the right questions, a little knowlege and insight, and a smidge of luck, you can get what you want, if perhaps not on the first try (never know when you might get a lemon custom off of GB or similar).
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Unlicensed Dremel said:
The OP never stated he was wanting to shoot game at 800 yards just a rifle that he could shoot that far as well as take hunting. As far as ethics that is a personal opinion as to what is an ethical range at which people should shoot. I've hunted around people who can cleanly make kills at ranges at which I would never attempt and hunted around people who had no business taking a shot at any range. It isn't up to me or anyone else to tell them that they shouldn't hunt. The best we can hope for is that people who hunt recognize their ability and hunt within those abilities.
Unlicensed Dremel said:
Again that's all opinion, since the OP stated that he doesn't reload. If you don't reload the .308 is an excellent cartridge to choose for a beginner. Much more factory options available for ammunition than any of the cartridges you mentioned.
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Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Oh, I'm sorry on the hunting confusion.... OK.
Point taken about high-quality ammo in .308.....but then again, you don't have to reload to find high-quality ammo in .260 or 6.5 creedmoor (albeit, as you indicated, not in a large selection, but a small and sometimes out-of-stock selection).... all you need is a credit card and internet connection to dial up Midway USA(and patience til they're in stock), so I stick by my advice on chambering. Though .308 isn't terrible choice, of course.
Point taken about high-quality ammo in .308.....but then again, you don't have to reload to find high-quality ammo in .260 or 6.5 creedmoor (albeit, as you indicated, not in a large selection, but a small and sometimes out-of-stock selection).... all you need is a credit card and internet connection to dial up Midway USA(and patience til they're in stock), so I stick by my advice on chambering. Though .308 isn't terrible choice, of course.
The differences are first focal plane, target turrets, objective size, power range, and illuminated reticles.
This ^^^ as well as reticle type . I love this reticle
http://imageshack.com/a/img211/6864/subpstf624x50ebr1moa1.jpg
If you want to compare all those scopes to one another , going to the Vortex web page is best
http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/riflescopes
Unlicensed Dremel said:
Midway offers 170 choices in .308 ammunition, and only about 34 choices for the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington combined. 40 of those 170 choices is for target/match ammunition so the .308 still has more choices than the others. I'm not arguing the .260 and 6.5 CM aren't good cartridges, just that the .308 isn't lacking either.
IMO the .308 Win is never a poor choice, and you're more likely to find it outside of the web retailers as well. Shooting instead of waiting on a backorder is always a better choice as well. It's kind of hard to learn the skills necessary to shoot to 800 yards with no ammunition to feed a rifle. It won't always be looking the best or cheapest ammunition, but the OP is more likely to find a larger selection of .308 ammunition locally than either of the cartridges you mentioned.