7.62x51: Two Marines’ Perspectives

Many actions in Vietnam-like Korea-took place at night which greatly reduced the effectiveness of aimed fire.
And for every Carlos Hathcock and Adelbert Waldron there is someone like the
member of my squad in BCT-Fort Dix, C-4-2, Summer of 1967.
Company Commander: "How come you only fired 31 at Record Fire ?!"
Recruit (wears glasses): "I couldn't see the targets, Sir!"
Company Commander: "Why not ?!"
Recruit: "I had a cold, Sir!"
 
Actually, it all went to hell when we went from the .45-70 to a .30 caliber. That's a .15 difference in bore size vs .08 between the .22 and the .30. You can't kill a man with a puny .30 and the magazine just wastes ammo. That last sentence had actually been said historically.

The above is sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell.

In my not so humble opinion, the M4/M16 is the finest service rifle currently fielded by a legitimate military. It the combined qualities of versatility, ruggedness, accuracy, and swiftness that's hard to beat.
 
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In Cuba in 1898 nobody complained about the stopping power or accuracy of the 45-70, it was that big cloud of white smoke.....:D
 
"We are civilians. How many rifle gun fights are we going to get into?"

In a previous life, I was in quite a few. I suggested that the 7.62x51 was superior but several didn't seem to think so. My question is how many 7.62x51 rounds have each of you personally watched impact a walking talking target?
 
I carried an M14 in Vietnam.

All I can say is that I came home and some folks did not get to go home. I am still rather fond of that rifle.

I sometimes think that I would like to have one but I would want it just like the government issue of 1968/69.

Hell, I might sleep with it just as I did that rifle...but my wife might object. :D
 
Mobuck--I don't think anyone is denying the inherent superiority of the 7.62 in terms of energy delivered; especially at medium/longer ranges--I think what is being contested is the notion that a NATO 5.56, used as intended at relatively closer ranges, is not an adequate round. It also offers quick deployment/acquisition and follow-up advantages.

Of course, I have "0" experience with engaging living targets with either caliber--so I could be wrong.;)
 
I sometimes think that I would like to have one but I would want it just like the government issue of 1968/69.

I have a "rack grade" M1A. Only difference from the M14 is a commercially made receiver and doesn't have the full auto parts. All the rest is GI parts.

Shoots better than I do. ;):D
 
I'm not saying the 5.56 is "inadequate" but it does have it's limitations.
I also refer to this in the context of hunting as in : yes, it will do certain things BUT there are many better choices.
The M-16 was intended (so I'm told) to provide short range, high volume fire of a more controllable nature than the M-14. I saw very few M-14's used full auto(don't remember ever doing so personally) as the line troops were already issued the M-16 and the M-14's we used weren't really intended as fire support weapons. The M-14 was the "short range" (under 500 yards) weapon while the bolt rifle started there and reached on out if that's what it took. Simply making a first round hit with a 5.56 at guestimated ranges and variable wind conditions would be problematic never mind the questionable effect at those ranges. Remember that back then, the 7.62x51 was already a force to be reckoned with on the target range and was rapidly displacing the venerable 30/06 in many long range circles.
 
I have a family member who was USMC infantry in Vietnam. He said he was ecstatic to get an M16 to replace the M14 he had to hump. The criticisms of the M14 were mostly weight-based and related to the amount of ammo he could carry. He swears by its accuracy, though. No insights on lethality of the two cartridges.
 
Remember that back then, the 7.62x51 was already a force to be reckoned with on the target range

And now 7.62X51 is rare as hens teeth in High Power. HP is dominated by the 5.56.

Scores are higher, and the best part, for me anyway, is it allows a lot more women and youngsters to get involved in the sport.
 
As a US Army vet who trained with the M14 and used the M16 in RVN as a backup weapon to my M-48's main gun and my M-2 50 cal; who currently owns both an AR15 rifle and mid-length carbine; who also owns a M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A, and Mini-14; and who spent 40+ yrs working for the Defense Dept, I may have a different perspective than many here. With that as a background perspective, in no particular order, here are some thoughts:

M16 was promoted over a 30 cal weapon system because of it's cheaper cost to produce, lighter weight, better rust resistance, much cheaper mags, significantly cheaper ammo, and lighter weight of ammo allowing troops to carry more rds in their basic combat load.

The lower recoiling, lower performance ammo of the M16 eased the training of recruits who weren't generally as use to shooting as earlier recruits which made for faster training and deployment of replacement troops. This means that more troops could be cycled through training at a lower cost per trained soldier.

As the M16's rds are smaller and lighter, it means that supply ships could bring in much higher quantities of resupply, speeding supply and lowering costs.

These and many, many other qualifiers that don't involve the combat effectiveness of a 5.56x45 vs 7.62x51 rd were the deciding factors in abandoning the wood and steel .30 cal platform for the plastic and aluminum 5.56 platform.

The terminal performance of a combat round is very important when shooting at an enemy and the much larger, much heavier .30 cal rd produces considerably more ME at longer range which increases causalities.

The lighter weigh, smaller .22 cal rd may be effective at shorter ranges but looses it's effectiveness much quicker as range increases. While this is critically important in combat it's irrelevant when shooting at paper so the .30 cal holds no sway over the 5.56 at a CMP shoot.

While the accuracy potential of the M16 in the hands of a basic infantryman is greater than that of the M1 Garand and M14 because of lighter weight, lighter recoil, and less anxiety shooting the smaller, lighter rd, the accuracy increase isn't necessary due to the shorter range engagements currently required of basic combat troops. However, longer range engagements by Designated Riflemen tend to be more effective with .30 cal platforms.

So, many of us feel that the decision to adopt the 5.56 was driven by cost considerations (acquisition, ammo, resupply, and training) at the expense of combat effectiveness. Your opinion many varry.
 
As most of here are "commoners" (not rich can't afford NFA full auto) I see the semi-auto only 7.62x51mm as the apex of effectiveness. Since we can't have full auto 5.56s, then a semi-auto 7.62x51mm is the next best thing.

In fact, some militaries limited their battle rifles to semi-auto only as full auto with the big 7.62s was a waste. I know many M14s in service had the selectors pinned, and some countries like Austria and Britain used semi-auto only FN FAL pattern guns. These were not just sniper rifles, but general issue infantry rifles. Go to the range today and at least 95% of people shooting the old "battle rifle" patterned guns like M1As, PTR-91s, and DSAs have a big magnified scope on top. There was actually a point in time when these battle rifles were not often issued with scopes, and the men that used them were not snipers or designated marksman, they were just normal rifleman.

Seems a foreign concept these days. It seems if you have a 7.62x51mm (.308 Win) rifle at the range it has to have a big scope and a bipod on it. Few are interested in shooting the old battle rifles how they were issue: iron sights and not much else, sometimes integrated light bipods or carry handles and that's it.

I know I personally keep my PTR-91 GI as is, iron sights and a sling. I look at it not as some kind of semi-auto sniper rifle but as an AK-47 on steroids if you will, useful at close range out to the 400 meters on the sight drum. That and a bandolier of magazines is all I need or want.
 
So, many of us feel that the decision to adopt the 5.56 was driven by cost considerations (acquisition, ammo, resupply, and training) at the expense of combat effectiveness. Your opinion many varry.

Uh, cost considerations contribute significantly more to combat effectiveness than rifle caliber. Take two armies of clones of identical capability and budgets.

Army #1:
Rifle is wood and steel 1930s design with 1960s upgrades.
7.62x51 ammo has superior barrier penetration and >300yds terminal effectiveness.
Ammo cost $320 per 500
20 rounds of ammo weighs a pound

Army #2
Rifle is polymer and aluminium 1950s design with 2000 upgrades.
Worse barrier penetration but same terminal effectiveness under 300yds.
Ammo cost $320 per 1000
30 rounds of ammo weighs a pound

For the same cost, Army #2 can train twice as much and move 1.5 times as much ammo to the fight. And that's before we even consider logistical effectiveness of the actual rifles.
 
The 7.62 is lethal out to 500 meters and more. Army 2 will all be dead before they can fire their guns with lethality. Army one doesn't rely on three round bursts they aim and use 1 round for one kill.

Mine is a more accurate, though just as untrue an example, as yours.
 
Model12Win said:
Few are interested in shooting the old battle rifles how they were issue: iron sights and not much else, sometimes integrated light bipods or carry handles and that's it.

I know I personally keep my PTR-91 GI as is, iron sights and a sling.

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. (I've been thinking whether there would be interest, and participation, in an iron sights only target photo thread?)
 
The 7.62 is lethal out to 500 meters and more. Army 2 will all be dead before they can fire their guns with lethality. Army one doesn't rely on three round bursts they aim and use 1 round for one kill.

So, with half as much live fire training, your strategy will be to engage at 500 meters plus with an emphasis on one shot, one kill? Good luck with that.
 
My thoughts and my thoughts only on the subject are pretty simple. I really doubt there is any rifle where one size fits all for the roll of the infantryman. I went through Marine Corps boot camp and ITR in April through July of 1969 and it was there the M14 rifle became my new best friend. My annual rifle qualifications were all with the M14 rifle. I never saw Vietnam until 1972 and it was then I became acquainted with the M16 rifle. Actually the smaller, shorter and lighter M16 seemed much more comfortable to me than if I would have been trying to wield a M14 around in tight spaces. That just being my take based on my experience with both rifles.

I will not even get into the nonsense about the lethal effects with hits from either rifle as most of it is just that, nonsense. Either rifle is capable of killing anyone with a single shot and that is all there really is to it. Rumor control has it if you are hit with an M16 in your right big toe the bullet will exit your left eye socket. The most amusing nonsense generally comes from people who place stock in stories which are fiction.

Today I have a few Colt SP1 rifles and a M1A simply for the nostalgia and the fact I enjoy shooting both.

Ron
 
I have never been in the armed forces ... and never will .. I have taken my share of game ...and varmints ....Black bear 2 over 400 lb to many whitetail to begin to count .. Coyotes and dogyotes .. and hawgs .. I must say the 270 Winchester has always worked well for me ....
Having said this , I was suprised the 6.8 Remington didn't take off or a simlar type cartrige .. That would function in a AR style rifle
 
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