Model12Win
Moderator
The reason I sold my PTR-91 was that it was out out of spec, the rail on top was crooked. And it didn't balance well for offhand shooting.
7.62x51: Two Marines’ Perspectives
- Thread starter rjinga
- Start date
stagpanther
New member
Hit the gym more often.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
davidsog said:
So, saying everyone knows this and the following it with “We are simply doing much more Urban warfare than ever before which tends to shorten the engagement ranges to the length of the room.” was just a non-sequitur? Well, I apologize if I mistakenly connected those sentences in the same paragraph and drew a different conclusion than you intended.
Speaking of cake baking, the study tested 26 types of ammo across six rifle calibers and two pistol calibers. Only nine types (8 5.56 and M80 ball) received the full static/dynamic testing. This included four commercial 5.56 ammo types. The study concluded that of these nine ammo types tested prior to 2008, they all performed “in the same band of performance.”
Extrapolating that to all commercial ammo in 2018 will perform pretty much like M855 at CQB ranges is maybe not one of those multi-tiered wedding cakes; but it is pretty fancy!
However, you are right that there are not and never have been any wonder bullets. You have to damage a small target to immediately stop someone and shot placement is still the far-and-away most important factor in how well any ammunition works.
The problem is we dont get to cherry pick the situation. You use the tool at hand. The shotgun is the last choice for hostage rescue work
No counter terror unit that gets tapped for a hostage rescue would dream of using a shotgun in that situation.
Rifle= a single AIMED projectile
Shotgun = multiple directed projecticles WITH flyers outside the main pattern a possibility.
Only as a last resort would a shotgun be considered for such tasking.
Lol. Baking a cake again.
Who said anything about a shotgun for hostage rescue?
It is a fact though in certain situations such as home defense in the suburbs or urban environment....a shotgun beats a 5.56mm handily.
If you absolutely positively have to kill everything in the room...with equal shot placement...a benelli will leave an M4 in the dust.
Who said anything about a shotgun for hostage rescue?
It is a fact though in certain situations such as home defense in the suburbs or urban environment....a shotgun beats a 5.56mm handily.
If you absolutely positively have to kill everything in the room...with equal shot placement...a benelli will leave an M4 in the dust.
I dont normally get up in arms over silly post, but this statement is beyond silly.
The so called "loss" In Vietnam had nothing to do with the rifle or our soldiers who faught there. There were no major battles where the M16A1, or our soldiers lost to the communisit or their rifles. NONE.
Wars are won by soldiers, lost by politicans. Vietnam is the perfect example.
Go back and read the Paris Peace Accords. In April of 1973 the war ended, Nixon bombed (and mined) the North Vietnamese into submission. The PPA showed a clear victory for the Americans where as it ended the war with the NVA Remaining in the Communist North, and South Vietnam remaining free.
Comes the politicians to snatch defeat from victory, cutting off all funds to the south allowing the NVA to invade again two years later. We left the South holding the bag with no ability to defend themselves.
Sorry to all if this drifts from the "firearm" theme but I could not let it past.
I was trained with the M14, used it in Basic, AIT, and when assigned to thet 82nd prior to being sent to Vietnam. I loved that rifle, got my Distinguished Rifle Badge while in the National Guard after the war.
However I was a grunt in Vietnam (Recon Plt, HHC, 2/502nd Inf, 101st Abn Div) 67-68. I was issued the M16A1 and carried it intermittenly (when I wasnt carrying the M-60). It was accurate, it was RELIABE, and quite handy in the jungles. Whats more, its light weight and the lighter weight of the ammo allowed me to carry a couple more canteens. We didnt have cases of water bottles delivered.
I've never had, nor seen, any failures do to the inability of the light weight M193 Bullet to do its job.
I used that same bullet in a bolt gun in my LE Sniper Duties. I've also shot competition using the M16A1. Granted in those days, High Power it wouldnt compete with the M14/M1A, but currently its the ARs that dominate High Power. The 30 Cal rifles will not compete.
Sorry for the Rant. I appoligize to the rest of the Firingline Staff and Members. Guess I;m a bit touchy, since this week marks the 50th Anniversity of my returning from Vietnam.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
No apology needed, kraig.
I got my Army discharge sixty years ago, so I don't relate to military needs in my own life. I would be using hunting ammo in whatever rifle I would use in a self/home-defense situation. Further, I'd follow Cooper's advice to strive for hits until the threat stops. If that means turning a Bad Guy into a colander, so be it.
I got my Army discharge sixty years ago, so I don't relate to military needs in my own life. I would be using hunting ammo in whatever rifle I would use in a self/home-defense situation. Further, I'd follow Cooper's advice to strive for hits until the threat stops. If that means turning a Bad Guy into a colander, so be it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"And folks still wonder why we lost Vietnam ..."
Jesus wept... are you SERIOUS?
Jesus wept... are you SERIOUS?
Kraigwy, think about something. Vietnam ended in 1975 so those born in '75 are what, about 43 years old today. Many who were never there have little knowledge of what actually happened. Many hear bum dope as to what each rifle was.
Like you I trained with the M14 and became very fond of it qualifying as a sharpshooter in 1969 Marine Corps. When I got to Vietnam I was issued a M16 and seriously it was the first time I ever actually handled a M16. Mine performed just fine doing what it was supposed to do when I needed it. While fond of my M14 and its capabilities I also became fond of my M16 which was well suited to the conditions around me. Hard to believe 46 years have passed.
While this thread is not about the .223 or 5.56 cartridges the 5.56 and M16 certainly served well and in no way contributed to the fall of the south after our departure. Now we can resume our regular discussion of the 7.62 NATO cartridge. Interesting as looking back I have no memory of ever seeing anything 7.62 X 51 in an AP flavor while my looking it up they apparently existed.
Ron
Like you I trained with the M14 and became very fond of it qualifying as a sharpshooter in 1969 Marine Corps. When I got to Vietnam I was issued a M16 and seriously it was the first time I ever actually handled a M16. Mine performed just fine doing what it was supposed to do when I needed it. While fond of my M14 and its capabilities I also became fond of my M16 which was well suited to the conditions around me. Hard to believe 46 years have passed.
While this thread is not about the .223 or 5.56 cartridges the 5.56 and M16 certainly served well and in no way contributed to the fall of the south after our departure. Now we can resume our regular discussion of the 7.62 NATO cartridge. Interesting as looking back I have no memory of ever seeing anything 7.62 X 51 in an AP flavor while my looking it up they apparently existed.
Ron
stagpanther
New member
I found the 30 cal AP bullets in bulk--I think it was 500 a bag and inside a cardboard box. I assume it was military surplus--there was a bit "grey zone" ambiguity as to whether it was legal or not.
