6mm Creedmoor or .243 Win

[taylorce1]

Well I'm a bit ignorant here. What is the need for a fast twist barrel in 24 cal rifle? 

Because the bullet companies aren't making bullets any shorter with the trend of the majority of shooters are not hunters. Plus why not take advantage of more retained velocity downrange and less wind correction required? If you compare the 95 grain SST at 3100 fps to the 103 ELDX at 3000 FPS above at 600 yards you have -11.9 MOA elevation, 5.0 MOA wind, and 750 ft-lbs energy. What isn't to like about shooting the heavier bullet for hunting purposes when it comes to wind bucking capabilities?

 

[ThomasT]

I am curious because I don't own a suppressor but I thought for those to properly work the velocity had to be pretty low. 3,000fps doesn't sound like speeds to use in a suppressor.

I have only owned two 243 rifles both from Remington and both had 1/9 twist. I never had any problem getting them to stabilize the Speer 105gr spitzers that Speer no longer makes.

 

[T. O'Heir]

.243 ammo and brass is everywhere. 6mm Creedmoor is not.
Midway shows 6 loads for the Creed(out of 11 listed. The rest are on back order or no back order.) 47 loads for the .243. 5 of which are on back order.
There are approximately 325,000 web sites comparing the ballistics. This is one. Pretty much similar in comparison between the .243 and 6mm Rem with the Win being slightly faster with like bullet weights. You can't easily find 6mm Rem ammo or brass either.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_243_6mmCreedmor.html

 

[stagpanther]

.243 ammo and brass is everywhere. 6mm Creedmoor is not

That's funny--I found tons of cheap starline 6mm creed brass readily available when I bought my barrel--maybe it's become the "flavor de jour" and harder to find? Since the 6mm creed is principally of interest to long range shooters--it probably will never be a threat to "conventional" 243 win hunters because the only real advantages are--at least at the early stages--going to be exploited by hand-loaders. The initial load data released by hornady and Sierra were, understandably, conservative IMO and was based on older "tried and true" bullets and powders.

 

[taylorce1]

.243 ammo and brass is everywhere. 6mm Creedmoor is not.

I'm not worried about buying ammunition, but the local Big R store 18 miles from my house stocks both the 6 Creed 103 ELDX and 108 ELDM ammunition. They also stock some factory 6.5 Grendel which is surprising. I can't find any .243 brass locally either since I don't shoot the WSSM. locally between Big R and Walmart I can only buy at most 5 different types of .243 ammunition usually 100 grain Win PP, Rem CL, Fed PS, 95 grain Fed NBT, and Barnes Vor-Tx 80 grain TTSX, none of which shoot bullets I'm interested in trying.

Since I have lived rural most of my life telephone, mail order, and internet are a way of life. If I can't find what I need there, I'll make it. The only thing not interchangeable is the brass, but I can make 6 Creedmoor out of .243 in a pinch.

 

[stagpanther]

but I can make 6 Creedmoor out of .243 in a pinch.

Or neck it down from 6.5 creed--which is what I did while waiting for my brass to come in. I have a neck reamer and turner but don't recall having any really notable donuts when I reamed the brass.

 

[Mobuck]

1: I doubt that increasing bullet weight from 100 grains to 103-105 grains will create a noticeable increase in terminal performance.
2: I think it will be a challenge for the 6mmC to exceed 3000fps with 105 grain bullets from 20" of bore since most 243 ammo fails to exceed 2900 with 100 grain bullets from 22-24" bores.
3: I can't answer what another may find an acceptable compromise in performance to achieve a more manageable length with a mounted suppressor. For myself, a 20" barrel with a 7-9" suppressor is already too long.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

If you're going to build, I see no advantage in a 243 Win. I like mine, 243 is a great caliber. But modern projectiles with higher ballistic coefficients broadens the opportunities for hand loaders and shooters of all stripes.

A 26" barrel isn't as easy to handle as a 20" barreled gun but still, if you want to have a silencer on a hunting rifle, the total length of the firearm will be relatively long. When walking around shooting prairie dogs the only rifles I have are Savage model 12's with 26" varmint barrels. They're heavy, and cumbersome and a pita when shooting prone on a bipod. Standing shots are fired using Primos Trigger Sticks tripod. Then, when hunting season arrives, packing a 9 lb. rifle feels absolutely wonderful. Its all perspective. Admittedly, nowadays walking thru hills and arroyo's for a couple hours is about the limit for me. Old age....my current excuse.

 

[stagpanther]

Just did a reality check and loaded up some 105 gr rdf's--using MR4000 and not even a compressed load (43.3) at a COL of 2.79 I was averaging over 3000 fps (standard deviation for a 4 shot group of 5 fps) my particular gun LOVES 108 gr eld's; but I ran out of them and need to order some more.

 

[kilotanker22]

I can see the advantage going with the 6mm Creedmoor. I would assume that you could load those long VLD Type bullets so they are not seated so deeply into the case. I mean that was the original point in the 6.5 right?

Seems like the same would ring true for the 6mm Creedmoor. If I were in the predicament that you are in. I would choose the 6mm Creedmoor. Although it is my belief that the advantage is minimal, But an advantage none the less.

 

[Road_Clam]

I had an itch for a target short range tack driver and did some research on the .25ish calibers. I bought a demo R700 Varmint in .243 and played around with it for a few years. Typical MOA shooter at 200 meters, but then I seemed to hit a wall trying to consistently get inside sub moa. I eventually retired the 243 from lack of enthusiasm. I have a better shooting 6.5CM so the .243 really didn't fill any needed niche within my long guns. However not to waste the $700 worth of .243 reloading components I built a custom MGM barreled TC Encore pistol in .243 (which is an absolute hoot to shoot !).

 

[stagpanther]

I had an itch for a target short range tack driver and did some research on the .25ish calibers.

25-06 will answer that itch nicely. So will the 25 x 45 sharps (as maligned as it is it can still shoot one-holers)

 

[ndking1126]

Taylorce1,

#3 1:7 twist barrel I have installed cut to 20" with basic blueprint and chambered in .243 Win

Is this a factory barrel or an aftermarket match barrel? In my opinion, that makes the difference. If it's aftermarket, use the aftermarket barrel and the basic blueprint. This would allow you to buy a triggertech trigger, which is a huge plus IMO. If it's a factory barrel and you are left choosing between Howa or Remington factory barrels, I'd recommend the Howa route. I've always been a huge fan of their rifles, but strangely never owned one.

I think the discussion has centered around caliber, but the caliber is very similar. The factory vs aftermarket plus blueprint is really the deciding factor. As you know, speed doesn't matter nearly as much as accuracy especially at typical hunting ranges (under 400).

In regards to your comment about Savage, I completely agree with you. I was a huge fan of their barrel nut design, but they ruined everything when they introduced the Edge/Axis, raised the prices of the 10/110, and dried up the market for used and take-off barrels. Using a smooth nut now certainly doesn't help their cause any either. I just found a cheap 110 to build off of, but otherwise I was ready to try a Tika. Next time I'm pretty sure I will

 

[taylorce1]

Mobuck,

I doubt I see a huge difference if any on terminal performance as well. All I can say is run the numbers yourself, where these heavy bullets really work well is bucking the wind. If I'm shooting them the same speed as most 100 grain BTSP 6mm bullets, my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets. I be be 400-600 FPS slower at the muzzle to get and still get the same wind correction values as the 6mm 100 grain BTSP at 600 yards.

ndking1126,

It's an X-caliber SS #3 contour, 1:7 5R twist barrel. However, I'm still leaning more toward the Howa just because it's the quickest to get what I want. Plus if my daughter's .308 has been a good indicator, I'll be very pleased with the Howa.

 

[LineStretcher]

Taylorce1, I get what you're after now and it makes total sense to me. Between the 700 and Howa 1500 actions, I would go with 700 simply because the tooling for blueprinting a 1500 is not common enough yet. PTG sells it but a lot of gunsmiths are reluctant to buy it and will stick to the 700 tooling they have.

Since basically all the 700's are using the same receiver, I'd find a donor rifle and start from there. Alternatively, if you have deep pockets got get a Surgeon 700 action.

The next thing I would do is to get on the phone to the folks at Lilja and talk to them about what they think they can make for you that will do what you want it to do. We can suggest based on what we have or in some cases, wish we had but we don't really know and can't know what you'll end up finding as the best for you. The folks I talk to at Lilja are the best right along with Shilen and Bartlein I like all three but tend to lean towards Lilja.

You're still going to need a gunsmith with a lathe and the correct reamer to complete the barrel and install it in your action with head space set correctly. He'll also need to thread the muzzle and crown it properly.

For your trigger, I'd probably lean towards a single stage Timney. They tend to be pretty darn good, adjustable and reliable. There are others out there and I've tried a few but I always seem to end up liking the Timney the best.

You said you already have a stock but you didn't say how it's prepped (pillar posted, overlay aluminum, etc.) If you like it, stick with it and do all the accurizing tricks you can to stop any unwanted harmonics from transferring to the barrel. If you decided it's too much work then go with a B&C stock.


All that said, you can get a Weatherby Vanguard Select in .243 for 600.00 and it's guaranteed sub moa. Take it to a gunsmith and shorten/thread and crown the barrel. I don't like the Select Stocks on these so I usually got with a B&C or the Hogue Fully Bedded over molded (a lot less work to make it great). Will it shoot as accurately with the shorter barrel, absolutely but you'll need to work up your loads to get it there. You're going to have to do that no matter which route you go. However, I would almost be willing to bet that if you have Remington 100g corelokts at Walmart or Big R they will shoot well in a Vanguard with a shortened barrel. My .308 with the 20" barrel and 1-12 twist loves their 180g.

 

[ndking1126]

Patience is a virtue! Haha.

Plus if my daughter's .308 has been a good indicator, I'll be very pleased with the Howa.

The first Howa I shot was a 223. I was at the range struggling to get decent groups with my Rem 700. The guy next to me offered to let me shoot his Howa, and the 4 shots I took made a group of less than inch at 100 yards. First time I had done that! Up until that point, I was pretty sure I was the problem. I agree, the Howa should shoot really well. Either option should give great results, but I still recommend the Rem/X-Caliber. Let us know what you go with!

I'm enjoying the 308 internal Savage 10 mag and bolt face you sent a few years back. Doubt you remember that, but I appreciate it. It ended up in my 260 Rem with Shilen barrel. Love that gun - it's the most accurate I own and with little recoil it's a joy to shoot.

 

[taylorce1]

I'm enjoying the 308 internal Savage 10 mag and bolt face you sent a few years back. Doubt you remember that, but I appreciate it.

I remember giving a centerfeed magazine and follower away, but I don't remember the bolt head. I can't remember ever having a spare bolt head. I just gave away the Steven's 200 stock that the magazine came out of. I'm glad you're getting some good use out of it .

 

[Mobuck]

"my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets."

Those additional 3-5 grains must be some sort of magic.

 

[ndking1126]

I must have paid the Smith for it then. I really thought it came with the mag. Either way, message is still the same.

 

[LineStretcher]

"my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets."

Those additional 3-5 grains must be some sort of magic.

Every rifle is different. I have a .308 that shoots 180's great but throw a 185 in there and it get's all upset. If you think about it, there has to be a break point somewhere. It could be as little as 1 grain. My Bergarra 6.5 C has come to like 129's better than 130's and the only way I can explain it is the way I just did.