Is it only Remington Arms who has a rifle calibered with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_mm_Remington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_mm_Remington
6 mm Remington, sad its gone for good.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Remington's bad planning pretty much ensured that the 6mm Remington would always be an also ran as compared to the .243. Which is sad because it's a very capable cartridge.
Full-choke
New member
Such is the story of the 6mm Remington...
Winchester brought out the 243 Winchester and chambered all their best rifles in it. Remington answered with the 244 Remington aka the 6mm Remington. If one were to look at the ballistics for the 6mm to the 243 you would find that the 6mm is in fact slightly better then that of the 243. That however went to the wayside as Remington never pressured sales in the caliber only ever offering it in a few of their low end rifles that never made a good name for themselves. Hence why the 6mm Rem did lose the fight and slowly tapered off.
But, a few die hard fans like myself keep it alive through handloading and custom rifles. I myself
mad:
if the barrel would ever get to me from TC ) have a custom 6mm Remington Encore. I look forward to getting it greatly as I have had a huge anticipation to finally get my own 6mm Remington.
F-C
Winchester brought out the 243 Winchester and chambered all their best rifles in it. Remington answered with the 244 Remington aka the 6mm Remington. If one were to look at the ballistics for the 6mm to the 243 you would find that the 6mm is in fact slightly better then that of the 243. That however went to the wayside as Remington never pressured sales in the caliber only ever offering it in a few of their low end rifles that never made a good name for themselves. Hence why the 6mm Rem did lose the fight and slowly tapered off.
But, a few die hard fans like myself keep it alive through handloading and custom rifles. I myself
mad:if the barrel would ever get to me from TC ) have a custom 6mm Remington Encore. I look forward to getting it greatly as I have had a huge anticipation to finally get my own 6mm Remington.F-C
Omaha-BeenGlockin
New member
The .243 killed it off a long long long long long time ago----the .243 also benefits from being from a whole family of cartridges based on a common military case.
Jack O'Conner
New member
We have a .243 in our rack; so do lots of folks.
Years ago, I was stationed with USAF in Michigan. I hunted with a second hand 35 Remington but my boss had a shiny new Remington automatic in 6mm. I recall that every deer he shot went down quick. Ironically, he chose the semi-auto for quick second shot but never needed to shoot twice.
Its hard to believe the 6mm coffin is nailed shut. .243 did same thing to 250 Savage. Unfair but true.
Jack
Mike Irwin
Staff
"That however went to the wayside as Remington never pressured sales in the caliber only ever offering it in a few of their low end rifles that never made a good name for themselves. Hence why the 6mm Rem did lose the fight and slowly tapered off."
Uh... what?
So, the Remington models 740, 742, 722, 725, and 760 were all "low end" Remington rifles?
And NONE of them ever made a good name for themselves?
With all due respect, you really need to look into the history of those models. All were top sellers for Remington for many years.
The 722 (long action) was a well thought of rifle and sold very well, nearly 120,000 units in about 12 years and the pump-action 760 sold over 1 million units between 1952 and 1981.
The Model 700 was never chambered in .244 Remington, that is true, but that's only because the 700 was introduced in 1962, about a year AFTER the 6mm replaced the .244, and the 6mm was one of the intro cartridges for the 700.
The 788 Remington was a low-cost gun (but oddly enough, was Remington's most accurate rifle out of the box), but it wasn't introduced until 1967, long after the .244 Remington was replaced with the 6mm.
The whole story is quite a bit more complex than how you're portraying it.
Remington pushed the .244 HARD from its inception in 1954-55.
The problem was, Remington completely misread what American shooters wanted.
Remington's people saw the .244 as a varmint cartridge only, so it was loaded with lighter bullets and the rifles had slower twist barrels.
Winchester correctly saw that hunters wanted a dual-purpose rifle/cartridge, one that would work equally well for varmints and light to medium game like whitetails. From the outset they offered the .243 with heavier bullets, and with barrel twists that would stabilize the heavier bullets.
It took Remington nearly 8 years of fielding complaints and bad sales to finally decide that hunters really did know what they wanted and that the bunch of pencil-necked geeks who made the initial decision were wrong, so they renamed the cartridge the 6mm.
By then it was too late. The .243 had established itself as the leader in the category and nothing was going to unseat it.
Remington finally suffered the ultimate humiliation when, on the introduction of the Model 700 in 1962, they offered it in both 6mm Remington and .243 Winchester.... and sales of the .243 version blew the 6mm out of the frigging water.
Uh... what?
So, the Remington models 740, 742, 722, 725, and 760 were all "low end" Remington rifles?
And NONE of them ever made a good name for themselves?
With all due respect, you really need to look into the history of those models. All were top sellers for Remington for many years.
The 722 (long action) was a well thought of rifle and sold very well, nearly 120,000 units in about 12 years and the pump-action 760 sold over 1 million units between 1952 and 1981.
The Model 700 was never chambered in .244 Remington, that is true, but that's only because the 700 was introduced in 1962, about a year AFTER the 6mm replaced the .244, and the 6mm was one of the intro cartridges for the 700.
The 788 Remington was a low-cost gun (but oddly enough, was Remington's most accurate rifle out of the box), but it wasn't introduced until 1967, long after the .244 Remington was replaced with the 6mm.
The whole story is quite a bit more complex than how you're portraying it.
Remington pushed the .244 HARD from its inception in 1954-55.
The problem was, Remington completely misread what American shooters wanted.
Remington's people saw the .244 as a varmint cartridge only, so it was loaded with lighter bullets and the rifles had slower twist barrels.
Winchester correctly saw that hunters wanted a dual-purpose rifle/cartridge, one that would work equally well for varmints and light to medium game like whitetails. From the outset they offered the .243 with heavier bullets, and with barrel twists that would stabilize the heavier bullets.
It took Remington nearly 8 years of fielding complaints and bad sales to finally decide that hunters really did know what they wanted and that the bunch of pencil-necked geeks who made the initial decision were wrong, so they renamed the cartridge the 6mm.
By then it was too late. The .243 had established itself as the leader in the category and nothing was going to unseat it.
Remington finally suffered the ultimate humiliation when, on the introduction of the Model 700 in 1962, they offered it in both 6mm Remington and .243 Winchester.... and sales of the .243 version blew the 6mm out of the frigging water.
The history of the miss-marketed 6mm is a sad and well known story. By the time the folks at Remington did away with the 1-12 and brought gave it a 1-9 it was two late, the 243 had taken a lead that would never be surpassed.
Make no mistake, the 6mm is FAR from dead. There are millions of rifles that have been chambered in it floating around that will never be given up. Even if they stopped producing rifles and ammo for it, we would keep it alive. It's longer neck and slightly larger powder capacity give it the edge for handloaders over the 243. I have a 788 in 6mm that is one of my favorite guns. My buddy has a Remington 40X in 6mm that is unreal. It might be slowing, but as long as those of us who own one are alive it will never be dead.
Make no mistake, the 6mm is FAR from dead. There are millions of rifles that have been chambered in it floating around that will never be given up. Even if they stopped producing rifles and ammo for it, we would keep it alive. It's longer neck and slightly larger powder capacity give it the edge for handloaders over the 243. I have a 788 in 6mm that is one of my favorite guns. My buddy has a Remington 40X in 6mm that is unreal. It might be slowing, but as long as those of us who own one are alive it will never be dead.
Ruger must have quit making them in the last two or three years. I bought a brand new m77 in 6mm rem three years ago, and am pleased with it. The numbers between 6mm and 243 give the 6 a slight edge, mostly if you reload, but I have been surprised at how many places do stock factory ammo. Has worked well on three whitetail, and someday my kids will get to shoot it.
Yep. The 6mm is a far better round than the .243 IMHO, but it wasn't "pitched" as well to John Q. Deerhunter. Out of the box ballistics might only be slightly better for 6mm, but reloading is where the difference comes into play. It's always been one of my favorite rounds for whitetails.
Jason
"It took Remington nearly 8 years of fielding complaints and bad sales to finally decide that hunters really did know what they wanted and that the bunch of pencil-necked geeks who made the initial decision were wrong, so they renamed the cartridge the 6mm."
Exactly. The change of designation spelled the end of that cartridge. BTW Remington made another big boo-boo when they re-named the .280 Remington the "7mm Remington Express. This caused a lot of confusion with the 7mm Remington Magnum.
Exactly. The change of designation spelled the end of that cartridge. BTW Remington made another big boo-boo when they re-named the .280 Remington the "7mm Remington Express. This caused a lot of confusion with the 7mm Remington Magnum.
Once again, Mr Irwin has the best info...
I would just like to add a couple more historical tidbits. One is that very influential gun writers of the day (especially Warren Page of Field & Stream) pitched the .24/6mm bore size to the shooting public as the ideal dual purpose round, tops for both varmint and deer. Page is given credit for being the principal originator of the .243, although his wildcat (.240 Page Pooper) was based on necking down military T-65 brass (later introduced by Winchester as the .308 Win) and used a 30 degree shoulder angle, not the 17 degree angle of the .308.
Remington, as noted, did consider the .244 to be primarily a varmint round, and made quality rifles with twists for that. After a couple years of slow sales, Remington changed the twist in their rifles to the 1 in 9 that would stabilize the 105gr Deer bullet, but by then the .244 had a reputation it never could shake off. A friend of mine had one of these later .244s, a Model 722, and it was an outstanding rifle. But the shooting public was convinced the .244 was no good for deer, whereas they were constantly told the .243 would do it all (and so it would).
A few years later Remington changed the name of the .244 to the 6mm Remington, and all 6mm Rem rifles have the fast twist needed for good performance with "deer" ammo. And then, Remington put their "new" 6mm in everything they made, all the models mentioned by Mike Irwin, and also the "budget gun" before the 788, the model 600 carbine.
Based on the 7x57mm Mauser case, the 6mm/.244 Remington has a slightly longer body, so it will hold a little more powder than the .243 Win, and a longer neck (.352 vs the .241 of the winchester case) and with careful handloading will yield about 200fps more velocity with the same bullets and barrel length.
As far as not finding the 6mm in Ruger's current line up, so what? Ruger has a long habit of taking the slow sellers off their production list for a few years at a time, then bringing tham back later, often in a "special" model. I'd be willing to bet that if you called Ruger and told them you wanted a certain rifle of theirs in 6mm, they would make it for you, even if they don't currently list that caliber as general production.
The 6mm Remington is far from dead, but it is also far from being the healthiest round on the market also. If you want the most performance from the 6mm bore size, without going to a Weatherby or a WSSSSSSSM or a complete wildcat, the 6mm is your best bet.
I would just like to add a couple more historical tidbits. One is that very influential gun writers of the day (especially Warren Page of Field & Stream) pitched the .24/6mm bore size to the shooting public as the ideal dual purpose round, tops for both varmint and deer. Page is given credit for being the principal originator of the .243, although his wildcat (.240 Page Pooper) was based on necking down military T-65 brass (later introduced by Winchester as the .308 Win) and used a 30 degree shoulder angle, not the 17 degree angle of the .308.
Remington, as noted, did consider the .244 to be primarily a varmint round, and made quality rifles with twists for that. After a couple years of slow sales, Remington changed the twist in their rifles to the 1 in 9 that would stabilize the 105gr Deer bullet, but by then the .244 had a reputation it never could shake off. A friend of mine had one of these later .244s, a Model 722, and it was an outstanding rifle. But the shooting public was convinced the .244 was no good for deer, whereas they were constantly told the .243 would do it all (and so it would).
A few years later Remington changed the name of the .244 to the 6mm Remington, and all 6mm Rem rifles have the fast twist needed for good performance with "deer" ammo. And then, Remington put their "new" 6mm in everything they made, all the models mentioned by Mike Irwin, and also the "budget gun" before the 788, the model 600 carbine.
Based on the 7x57mm Mauser case, the 6mm/.244 Remington has a slightly longer body, so it will hold a little more powder than the .243 Win, and a longer neck (.352 vs the .241 of the winchester case) and with careful handloading will yield about 200fps more velocity with the same bullets and barrel length.
As far as not finding the 6mm in Ruger's current line up, so what? Ruger has a long habit of taking the slow sellers off their production list for a few years at a time, then bringing tham back later, often in a "special" model. I'd be willing to bet that if you called Ruger and told them you wanted a certain rifle of theirs in 6mm, they would make it for you, even if they don't currently list that caliber as general production.
The 6mm Remington is far from dead, but it is also far from being the healthiest round on the market also. If you want the most performance from the 6mm bore size, without going to a Weatherby or a WSSSSSSSM or a complete wildcat, the 6mm is your best bet.
6mm
Great explanation guys. It is a good thing when someone can explain what really happened.
One last thing. The 6mm was also available in the 700BDL Rifle. I have one. And at the time the BDL was the Remington flagship rifle.
I would not go so far as to say that it is gone. But it is so close to the 243 Winchester that it is not really needed. One or the other would be good enough. Tom.
Great explanation guys. It is a good thing when someone can explain what really happened.
One last thing. The 6mm was also available in the 700BDL Rifle. I have one. And at the time the BDL was the Remington flagship rifle.
I would not go so far as to say that it is gone. But it is so close to the 243 Winchester that it is not really needed. One or the other would be good enough. Tom.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
The parents of one of my friends have a pair of consecutively serial numbered Remington 760s chambered in .244 that they bought new for deer hunting in 1957 or so.
I tried for years to get them to sell those rifles.
No dice.
I tried for years to get them to sell those rifles.
No dice.
Rampant_Colt
New member
Did anybody mention that's one of the cartridges Charles Whitman used? 
Too bad it's officially dead now - i suspect many other 'niche' cartridges will follow suit like the short magnums and ultra-magnums.
It's all about marketing and timing of a product i guess
Too bad it's officially dead now - i suspect many other 'niche' cartridges will follow suit like the short magnums and ultra-magnums.
It's all about marketing and timing of a product i guess
Lawyer Daggit
New member
Over the years I have seen a number of calibres die and be reborn- 45/70 , 348 Winchester and .350 Rem Mag to name but three.
I suspect it will hang on in there with periodical case production runs.
Sadly a number of good rounds have bitten the dust as a result of big W hype. Remington used to produce a 5mm Rimfire that outperformed the .22 WMR, but the .22 WMR won out.
I always find it amazing what works and what doesn't in terms of cartridges.
I suspect it will hang on in there with periodical case production runs.
Sadly a number of good rounds have bitten the dust as a result of big W hype. Remington used to produce a 5mm Rimfire that outperformed the .22 WMR, but the .22 WMR won out.
I always find it amazing what works and what doesn't in terms of cartridges.
beretgreen
New member
LONG LIVE THE RUMS! YOU haven't LIVED until you almost DIED!
Full-choke
New member
Yes it was put in rifles like the 700, 788 and 7600...but the accuracy was always the issue. Every person I talked to said the anything early from Remington in 244 or 6mm naming didn't do as well as hoped. It was the 1 in 12 that did it. Any rifle that it was chambered in later with a good rifling failed to show significant enough sales in the caliber to make a namesake cartridge.
Now why the 788 and 7600 are popular now, you must remember two things. The 788 is notorious for having broken bolt handles, not a problem that a deer hunter wants. I myself have been around them enough to know that they are deadly accurate rifles but I don't think they were quite poplar enough when they were being produced. Also, the 7600 never really got as hugely popular as it did until what's his name and his family(I can't think of it) wrote a book and articles about deer hunting exclusively with the 7600 pump.
So while guns may be hugely sought after today may not have been then. I think it is completely safe to say that it was largely all Remington's fault for killing the 6mm/244 through poor marketing of the round and that is why it just never made it.
Also, I don't know why we are saying "the nails are in the coffin" b/c in my quite unprofessional opinion it's not. Federal and Remington I believe both still make factory ammo for it. Granted there aren't a huge selection other then straight up hunting loads but at least some one is still crankin' 'em out. My local shop even carries a couple boxes on the shelf, and trust me they wouldn't if they didn't sell 'em.
F-C
Now why the 788 and 7600 are popular now, you must remember two things. The 788 is notorious for having broken bolt handles, not a problem that a deer hunter wants. I myself have been around them enough to know that they are deadly accurate rifles but I don't think they were quite poplar enough when they were being produced. Also, the 7600 never really got as hugely popular as it did until what's his name and his family(I can't think of it) wrote a book and articles about deer hunting exclusively with the 7600 pump.
So while guns may be hugely sought after today may not have been then. I think it is completely safe to say that it was largely all Remington's fault for killing the 6mm/244 through poor marketing of the round and that is why it just never made it.
Also, I don't know why we are saying "the nails are in the coffin" b/c in my quite unprofessional opinion it's not. Federal and Remington I believe both still make factory ammo for it. Granted there aren't a huge selection other then straight up hunting loads but at least some one is still crankin' 'em out. My local shop even carries a couple boxes on the shelf, and trust me they wouldn't if they didn't sell 'em.
F-C
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