5year old shot with dads gun

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We as a gun community talk a good talk, but we do not abide by our own rhetoric. How many times have you been to a gun store or gun show with the sign "no loaded firearms." Why do we say that the armed citizen is the best way to make us safe, yet the gun dealers do not want citizens armed inside their stores? HYPOCRITES! I actually changed who I deal with over this issue. There is only one gun shop in the area that welcomes loaded firearms inside. They now get my money. They don't keep their long guns behind the counter either. I quit going to gun shows because they are hypocrites.

Well hyprocracy is a well learned response. We have very open gun laws.

But the same legislature that wrote those laws will not let an armed citizen in the chambers.

So, as there is no risk and armed is better, why is it not so for them?

Because there is a risk and they want to put it on someone else but not themselves.
 
Whenever lots of people will be handling guns, there does need to be strict rules in place. Because out of 1,000 functional people, 140 of them will have IQ's between 70-85.
Out of 100,000 people less than one will be a mass shooter. None of you are bolstering the "well armed Citizen" argument. You are actually conceding the talking points of the anti gun lobby.
 
Never kept a chamber loaded in the house until my kids were old enough to >understand the danger of all firearms period< no matter where~found. And no I didn't sit my kids down at age 1 or 2 and expect them to stay focused on the danger of firearms. More like six or seven years of age before their >serious< gun tutoring took place.

How a adult can leave a loaded firearm within the grasps of a unknowing child.

That fellow or gal deserves {20 to Life} so to mull-over his or her caviler like stupidity.
 
My brother whom I shoot with and is a CC holder came by last night to show us his new car. On the way home he struck a deer running into the road. He was not hurt but did call 911 for the police and then called us. So now I have 2 questions, both related. What happens if he were injured and unconscious and carrying? Next what if he was unconscious and also had a range bag in the car full of guns? How do the police handle this situation and what happen if they tow the vehicle not knowing there is a bag full of guns in the back? Again I have never been in this situation so I truly do not know.

That is a very jurisdictional-dependent response. There is no one answer, but I can tell you what I would do at my agency. Many jurisdictions search and inventory a vehicle before it is towed as a part of policy. My agency has no inventory policy, so we typically do not search vehicles that are towed as a result of a motor vehicle collision. So if there is no gun on the person, but some in the range bag in the trunk, it's probably going with the wrecker in my town.

Now if I were to come across an unconscious victim in a car wreck who is carrying, I will probably hold onto it. If injured to that extent, I'll probably have to go to the hospital to finish my investigation (get further details of extent of injuries, etc.). Hopefully, and in most cases, a spouse or other next of kin will show up. At that point, after doing a quick CCH on both the victim and next of kin (policy requirement when transferring a firearm out of my custody) to confirm neither are prohibited persons I will turn the firearm over to next of kin. If no responsible person presents themselves at the hospital, I'll enter the pistol into evidence for safekeeping.

And as a side note, if I came across an injured victim in a car wreck who is CCH, I will probably go through the car to make sure the tow company doesn't tow a car with guns in it. We have had problems with employees at tow companies taking items from vehicles, and my "search" would be for no other reason to protect theft of the person's property (especially in the case of firearms).
 
It appears to me that if the gun industry does not trust the armed citizenry to carry in industry establishments, then the arms industry and lobby should not expect other industries to trust the armed citizen.
They've tried "trust" and found it doesn't work in some circumstances. That doesn't mean it doesn't work in ALL circumstances--in some circumstances it obviously does work very well.

We're not talking about abstract concepts here. How many times does a customer get to shoot a hole in the wall of a gun shop before the owner is justified in making a policy to reduce risk? How many NDs should a gun show organizer tolerate before zip-tieing all the guns that come in the door? Should they wait until someone gets injured or killed, or maybe not even that would warrant such a policy?
Facts used as excuses.
Facts used as facts. A bullet hole in the wall is a fact. An ND at a gun show is a fact. Those are REAL risks. Holes that could be in a person instead of a wall. Lawsuits that could bankrupt a business. Are you going to pay the medical bills or funeral expenses? Are you going to pay the legal fees or support the employees when someone goes out of business after a lawsuit?

The risk is REAL, the consequences are REAL. Calling it nothing more than excuses is ignoring reality.
If hotels, restaurants, theaters, etc ban guns, then they also reduce their chance of a N.D. The exact reasoning you are using to defend prohibiting carry in a gun store is the same reasoning the anti gunners use to propose anti carry everywhere.
ONLY if you pretend that the circumstances in a hotel, restaurant or theater are the same as those in a gun shop or a gun show. I pointed out in my last post that they are not, and then explained in careful detail why they are not.

If you want to ignore reality and pretend that restaurants are just as likely to experience NDs as gunshops, I'm not sure what else can be said. But answer me this: How many people have you seen bring a gun into a restaurant to show to the manager and demonstrate how it doesn't work right? How many people have you seen pull out a carry gun in a restaurant to show it to another customer or a staff member? How many people handle guns and ammunition at restaurants vs at gun shows?

So NO, it's not the exact reasoning at all. What you're saying is roughly the same thing as claiming that a person has the same risk of being in a fatal wreck while they're still in their driveway as on the expressway. Sure, they're driving in both cases, but the circumstances are dramatically different in just about every way possible.
You are actually conceding the talking points of the anti gun lobby.
Not at all. Pointing out that differing risk levels can warrant differing policies is not conceding anything.
 
It appears to me that if the gun industry does not trust the armed citizenry to carry in industry establishments, then the arms industry and lobby should not expect other industries to trust the armed citizen.
They've tried "trust" and found it doesn't work in some circumstances. That doesn't mean it doesn't work in ALL circumstances--in some circumstances it obviously does work very well.

We're not talking about abstract concepts here. How many times does a customer get to shoot a hole in the wall of a gun shop before the owner is justified in making a policy to reduce risk? How many NDs should a gun show organizer tolerate before zip-tieing all the guns that come in the door? Should they wait until someone gets injured or killed, or maybe not even that would warrant such a policy?
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Facts used as excuses.
Facts used as facts. A bullet hole in the wall is a fact. An ND at a gun show is a fact. Those are REAL risks. Holes that could be in a person instead of a wall. Lawsuits that could bankrupt a business. Are you going to pay the medical bills or funeral expenses? Are you going to pay the legal fees or support the employees when someone goes out of business after a lawsuit?

The risk is REAL, the consequences are REAL. Calling it nothing more than excuses is ignoring reality.
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If hotels, restaurants, theaters, etc ban guns, then they also reduce their chance of a N.D. The exact reasoning you are using to defend prohibiting carry in a gun store is the same reasoning the anti gunners use to propose anti carry everywhere.
ONLY if you pretend that the circumstances in a hotel, restaurant or theater are the same as those in a gun shop or a gun show. I pointed out in my last post that they are not, and then explained in careful detail why they are not.

If you want to ignore reality and pretend that restaurants are just as likely to experience NDs as gunshops, I'm not sure what else can be said. But answer me this: How many people have you seen bring a gun into a restaurant to show to the manager and demonstrate how it doesn't work right? How many people have you seen pull out a carry gun in a restaurant to show it to another customer or a staff member? How many people handle guns and ammunition at restaurants vs at gun shows?

So NO, it's not the exact reasoning at all. What you're saying is roughly the same thing as claiming that a person has the same risk of being in a fatal wreck while they're still in their driveway as on the expressway. Sure, they're driving in both cases, but the circumstances are dramatically different in just about every way possible.
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You are actually conceding the talking points of the anti gun lobby.
Not at all. Pointing out that differing risk levels can warrant differing policies is not conceding anything.

It is hypocrisy of the highest form.
Is the hotel or restaurant owner expected to assume liability the industry is not willing to assume? I am a rare person that lets principle dominate my decision making. Principle TRUMPS practicality. The principle shown here is highest order hypocrisy.
I understand what you are saying. It is the same reason the antigunners use for wanting to disarm America.
 
It is hypocrisy of the highest form.
Repeating the same thing over and over does not make it true.

Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. Saying in situation X, people should do Y but then finding myself in situation X and doing Z instead would be hypocrisy.

But if the circumstances are different in the two situations, then it is NOT hypocrisy because the two situations are not the same. Saying in situation X, people should do Y, and then finding myself in situation W and doing Z is not hypocrisy because situation X is not the same as situation W.

Hypocrisy would be saying that I believe it is wrong to restrict the carry of loaded guns in gun shops and at gun shows but then not allowing people to carry loaded guns into my gun shop or at a gun show that I organize.

It is not hypocrisy for me to say that I believe it is wrong to place strict restrictions on carry in most public places while acknowledging that the additional risk in certain situations and places can warrant stricter restrictions than I might otherwise support in the general case. You might disagree with my viewpoint, but it wouldn't be accurate to call it hypocrisy because it doesn't meet the definition of hypocrisy.
Is the hotel or restaurant owner expected to assume liability the industry is not willing to assume?
The risk level is not the same. How many restaurant owners have stories about NDs in their restaurants? How many hotels have thousands of people handling guns on their premises in a single weekend? How many loaded guns are being pulled out and shown to others in a restaurant?

Different circumstances, different risk. Different risks warrant different levels of risk reduction.

I am an engineer. I go out in public every day just like a police officer does. However, my risk of being shot is just about nil. So am I being hypocritical when I say that I believe a police officer should wear a bullet proof vest while on the job while saying that it would be ridiculous for me to do the same? Of course not. Although we both have jobs and both go out in public and both experience risk in the course of a day, the circumstances of our jobs mean that the risk levels are very different and therefore the steps we need to take to deal with that risk are also going to be very different if we both take a reasonable approach to risk reduction/mitigation.

But, if both of us get shot, won't the potential "liability" be the same? YES. Getting shot could kill either of us. It's not the potential outcome that makes the difference in our actions, it's the differing risk level. I'm not saying he should wear a bullet proof vest to work because he is more vulnerable to bullets than I am. I'm making my assertion because his risk level of being shot is higher.
I understand what you are saying. It is the same reason the antigunners use for wanting to disarm America.
If you believe that it is the same then you don't understand. And again, saying something repeatedly won't make it true.

There are places where virtually believes guns should not be allowed due to unacceptable risk or unusual circumstances. The idea that people believe that a defendant should not be allowed to carry into a courtroom or that prisoners shouldn't be allowed to carry in jail, or that children shouldn't take guns to school, or that the risk of NDs is high enough at gunshows to warrant zip-tieing all firearms, doesn't mean that they are anti-gun. It just means that they accept that circumstances can change the level of risk and that differing levels of risk can warrant differing policies.
 
Out of 100,000 people less than one will be a mass shooter. None of you are bolstering the "well armed Citizen" argument. You are actually conceding the talking points of the anti gun lobby.

No we aren't. I was talking about a situation where thousands of people would be handling, showing, letting others handle their own private loaded weapons. Most people who own a gun or carry do not excessively handle, pull trigger, rack slide on their own guns. But, at a gun show, that's what a gun show is for - playing with guns. I think it's a good idea to have a rule in place that ensures they are at least unloaded. Same thing with gun stores. If I were working behind the counter and had to deal with every Tom Fatfinger showing me his unholstered Glock, I too would have a strict rule of no loaded guns in my store.
 
No we aren't. I was talking about a situation where thousands of people would be handling, showing, letting others handle their own private loaded weapons. Most people who own a gun or carry do not excessively handle, pull trigger, rack slide on their own guns. But, at a gun show, that's what a gun show is for - playing with guns. I think it's a good idea to have a rule in place that ensures they are at least unloaded. Same thing with gun stores. If I were working behind the counter and had to deal with every Tom Fatfinger showing me his unholstered Glock, I too would have a strict rule of no loaded guns in my store.
Throw Tom Fatfinger out of your store. When I was SWAT commander, I had a rule that me and the Chief clashed on a few times. I always won. My rule was "The SWAT team is idiot proof because I throw all idiots off the team." You don't need a bunch of rules. You need people with a bunch of common sense.
 
Have not been to one in years. There was no shortage of idiots then and sure it's worse now. So, is the left correct about the "armed citizen"?

Generally, no. But, the "armed citizen" does not normally pull out his loaded gun everywhere he goes handing it to others to show it off. However, that is exactly what happens at gun shows. People are constantly handling guns.

If 1000's of people could CC with loaded firearms at a gun show, drawing the firearm from concealment and then handing it to another to look at, consider purchasing it, or whatever, you would have ND's all over the place. Heck, ND's happen (albeit rarely) at gun shows even with all of the precautions to make sure no one is carrying a loaded firearm! Gun show attendees are simply in a different mindset when they are surrounded by thousands of guns, ammo, etc. Where a person would normally be careful about the one gun he is carrying, never even think of letting someone look at it; that's just not how it goes at gun shows, or to a lesser extent gun stores.

Other things that are bad ideas:
Smoking while pumping gas (or reloading ammo)
Drinking alcohol while operating heavy machinery
Riding in an airplane piloted by a diabetic.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with someone pumping gas, smoking (if they so desire), drinking alcohol, operating heavy machinery, being an airline passenger or being a diabetic, various combinations of these things is problematic.
 
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So, if a "no loaded guns" sign is hypocrisy, and supports the goals and talking points of the anti-gun zealots, what about those "NO SHIRT NO SHOES NO SERVICE signs???

is a NO SHIRT sign hypocrisy because it doesn't allow you to bare arms??:rolleyes:

I think you are missing the small point that your right to do what you want, when you want, where you want, ENDS at my property line.

All our Constitutionally enumerated rights are a contract between we, the people, and the government. NOT between we the people, and we, the people.

Businesses open to the public do have certain rules they must follow, under law, but within those limits, they can, and do add what ever rules they desire.

Our right to free speech allows you to make any kind of political statement you wish, without the government legally being able to stop you. But, I can stop you from doing it on my property, if I wish. If you work for me, I can stop you from doing it on my time, as well. This is not hypocrisy, it is property owner's rights. And property owner's rights, beat individual rights, on their property. Off our property, we have the same rights, but "my house, my rules" is still the basic principle.

If you don't like my rules, take yourself elsewhere. You are free to do that, as, am I.
 
So, if a "no loaded guns" sign is hypocrisy, and supports the goals and talking points of the anti-gun zealots, what about those "NO SHIRT NO SHOES NO SERVICE signs???

is a NO SHIRT sign hypocrisy because it doesn't allow you to bare arms??

I think you are missing the small point that your right to do what you want, when you want, where you want, ENDS at my property line.

All our Constitutionally enumerated rights are a contract between we, the people, and the government. NOT between we the people, and we, the people.

Businesses open to the public do have certain rules they must follow, under law, but within those limits, they can, and do add what ever rules they desire.

Our right to free speech allows you to make any kind of political statement you wish, without the government legally being able to stop you. But, I can stop you from doing it on my property, if I wish. If you work for me, I can stop you from doing it on my time, as well. This is not hypocrisy, it is property owner's rights. And property owner's rights, beat individual rights, on their property. Off our property, we have the same rights, but "my house, my rules" is still the basic principle.

If you don't like my rules, take yourself elsewhere. You are free to do that, as, am I.
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This discussion is about taking business elsewhere. There are people taking business elsewhere due to industry hypocrisy. I make a conscious decision not to trade with shops who restrict the freedoms of the citizen to be armed.
For the record, I rarely ever carry. It's 100% about principle, consistency, and coherence of logic.
 
Seems we have an agreement.
Owner is free to impose rules, "My house, My rules"
Customers are free to say I don't like your rules so I'm going somewhere else.

Just like a company I once worked for. They gave us as a benefit 6 paid holidays, only thing was that you didn't get them off! In 7 years there I had one 4th of July off, 3 Thanksgivings, 3 Christmas and 3 New Years. and most of those were because they fell on my normal day off.
 
Throw Tom Fatfinger out of your store. When I was SWAT commander, I had a rule that me and the Chief clashed on a few times. I always won. My rule was "The SWAT team is idiot proof because I throw all idiots off the team." You don't need a bunch of rules. You need people with a bunch of common sense.
If you can figure out in advance who is going to have an ND and screen people as they come in the door of a gun show or gun shop, that might be a practical solution. So far no one has a solution like that.

A SWAT team is a fairly elite group of people--I think you would agree that a random sampling of people at a gun show would not be at all similar to a random sampling of SWAT team members.

I agree that if we could easily screen for idiots and people lacking common sense that this topic would be a lot simpler. But that's just not reality. In reality, there are some people who can't even learn from their mistakes. I know a guy who accidentally killed someone playing with his gun. Awhile back, AFTER the fatal incident, he shot a hole in the door of the local gun shop. Obviously the kind of guy you'd like to throw out of your gun shop or turn back at the door of a gun show. But he doesn't stand out from a crowd. Short of running him through some sort of a test to see how he handles firearms there's no way to know that he's a danger to himself and others when he has a gun in his hands.
So, is the left correct about the "armed citizen"?
You have created what is called a false dichotomy. That is, you have taken a complicated topic and tried to pretend that there are only two possibilities.

1. The anti-gunners are right and gun owners are irresponsible.
OR
2. Gun shops and gun show organizers are hypocrites because they advocate carry but restrict it on their premises.

But it's a false dichotomy because it's not nearly that simple.

Some gun owners are irresponsible, but in typical situations, the fact that they are few and the fact that the circumstances generally don't have them doing potentially risky activities means that we don't need to worry about citizens firing off unintentional shots at every turn.

HOWEVER, change the circumstances by concentrating large numbers of people all in one spot, all doing the kinds of things that are potentially risky when it comes to NDs and things change.

I don't really think that it's difficult to understand why 1000 people standing around handling guns are more likely to have a mishap than 1000 people who are carrying guns while they eat at a restaurant or watch a movie or go to the grocery store.
I make a conscious decision not to trade with shops who restrict the freedoms of the citizen to be armed.
That is your right. I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong to take that stance. If you feel like that is the right course of action then do it.

What I am saying is that your assertion that such restrictions are hypocritical is not based on a conventional definition of the word 'hypocritical'. The idea that people believe that SOME CIRCUMSTANCES can warrant more restrictions than other sets of circumstances is not hypocrisy. It is simply an acknowledgement of the fact that differing circumstances can create differing levels of risk. Different standards for different situations is not hypocrisy. Differing standards for the SAME situation IS hypocrisy.

So if you want to boycott gun shops that prohibit loaded guns, then go right ahead. It's your right. But calling them hypocritical isn't accurate because it fails to take into account the fact that the risk of an ND in a gun shop is much higher than it is in other locations where people carry, but do not handle firearms.
 
You have created what is called a false dichotomy. That is, you have taken a complicated topic and tried to pretend that there are only two possibilities.

1. The anti-gunners are right and gun owners are irresponsible.
OR
2. Gun shops and gun show organizers are hypocrites because they advocate carry but restrict it on their premises.

But it's a false dichotomy because it's not nearly that simple.

Some gun owners are irresponsible, but in typical situations, the fact that they are few and the fact that the circumstances generally don't have them doing potentially risky activities means that we don't need to worry about citizens firing off unintentional shots at every turn.

HOWEVER, change the circumstances by concentrating large numbers of people all in one spot, all doing the kinds of things that are potentially risky when it comes to NDs and things change.

I don't really think that it's difficult to understand why 1000 people standing around handling guns are more likely to have a mishap than 1000 people who are carrying guns while they eat at a restaurant or watch a movie or go to the grocery store.
Very nicely stated!
 
You have created what is called a false dichotomy. That is, you have taken a complicated topic and tried to pretend that there are only two possibilities.

1. The anti-gunners are right and gun owners are irresponsible.
OR
2. Gun shops and gun show organizers are hypocrites because they advocate carry but restrict it on their premises.

But it's a false dichotomy because it's not nearly that simple.

Some gun owners are irresponsible, but in typical situations, the fact that they are few and the fact that the circumstances generally don't have them doing potentially risky activities means that we don't need to worry about citizens firing off unintentional shots at every turn.

HOWEVER, change the circumstances by concentrating large numbers of people all in one spot, all doing the kinds of things that are potentially risky when it comes to NDs and things change.

I don't really think that it's difficult to understand why 1000 people standing around handling guns are more likely to have a mishap than 1000 people who are carrying guns while they eat at a restaurant or watch a movie or go to the grocery store
No false dichotomy. Advocates of carry rights restricting carry rights is hypocritical.
A common sense approach to the situation is the sign that says "lawful concealed carry welcome here."
At the point in time Joe Fatfinger shows you or anyone else his firearm, it's no longer concealed carry. Throw him out of your store.
 
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