5-shot .44Spl in a Ruger GP frame.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by jackmoser65:

Have you learned that the same technology is also applied to larger cartridges???

Yes, and that the increase in expanded diameter over prior premium loads in the Winchester PDX1 line has been proportionally much greater in 9mm than in the larger calibers.

And that the difference in expanded diameters among the different calibers is insignificant.

Shot placement is a given.

What does that mean? You may or may not hit what is important, and a lot of what determines you do is a matter of chance--which is improved by faster shooting.

True but the likelihood of encountering those consequences is infinitely more likely in hunting than self defense.

Getting killed by bears or cats due to a miss infinitely more likely than getting harmed in a self defense situation? Come now.

Penetration without tissue disruption is nearly useless.

What in the world is that supposed to mean? You cannot penetrate tissue without destroying it.

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http://amzn.com/0964357712

I'm very familiar with it. Here's what McPherson says:

The three primary components needed for effectiveness with handgun bullets are as follows and in order of importance. These are facts and are indisputable!

1. Bullet Placement - Hit the correct target and you will have better results than if you don't.

2. Bullet Penetration - The farther the bullet goes into the body, the more damage it will cause.

3. Bullet Diameter - The larger the hole the more permanent damage that is done to everything that is in the pathway of that bullet. A 1 inch in diameter hole will cause more permanent damage than a 1/2 inch hole. In other words, a .45 will cause a bigger diameter hole, hence more permanent damage, than a .22.

On the first, the "correct target" is hidden and moving, and hitting is takes more than marksmanship.

On the last point, --well, it is listed last, but I would not use a .22, or a .32, for that matter.

The 147 grain PDX 1 9mm expands to an average of .54 inches, and the .40 165 grain load, to .6.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by davidjohn:

Elmer Keith wrote an article in Guns and Ammo back in the 1970's and thought his 250 gr bullet with 7.5 gr Unique would be a better SD round than any .357 mag round.

He speaks of "outright knockdown". Humph.

But in those days, a .44 Special just might have been better than a .357. I'm sure elmer would have preferred a 1950 target over a five shot revolver. though.

He was also a big proponent of the .41 Magnum, but that was a flop for SD and police work.

The loads that Elmer had to compare in those days are not what one would carry today.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

I am a firm believer in using the largest caliber you can shoot well with one handed. In a lot of situations the other hand is going to be doing something like trying to get an attacker off of yourself. I also believe in practicing with that gun one, and two handed as often as one can do practically, and shooting as much ammo as one can afford.


Rule one of surviving a battle is not to get hit. (CSM J E Brown US Army SF Ret.)

Caliber does play a role with hand gun rounds. Though the most critical is hitting an area that will make the combatant stop as quickly as possible. Under most critical stress situations that is no easy feat even for highly trained individuals.

The my caliber is superior to your choice, and I will keep at it until you eat the -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- burger with a smile attitude shows a narrow thought range. In the end it is how well you use it.

Oh and Mr Pond I would like to see one that did not cost so much. I had to settle with a flat top Black Hawk instead.

 

[tallball]

This Rossi 720 is my favorite so far. Its weight and 3" barrel make shooting it easy. It fits my XL hand just fine, but a GP100 fits it better.

 

[tallball]

Here is my shrouded Bulldog. I had it in my back pocket when I was walking the dog this morning. I usually practice with cowboy type loads, and the recoil is no worse than a 38 snub, imho.

 

[tallball]

I think Taurus is still making this one. It has an alloy frame. Recoil is NBD, to me anyway. I have seen older steel versions on GunBroker - the people who have those older versions really seem to like them.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by m&p45acp10+1:

Though the most critical is hitting an area that will make the combatant stop as quickly as possible.

That's absolutely true, and that "area" is small, hidden within a large three dimensional cloak, and moving along different irregular paths, linearly and rotationally.

There was a 3D illustration on another board that showed the paths of bullets entering a body at different points of ingress and at different angles in more than one plane that showed how the bullets could hit or miss a critical part of the body. It was an eye opener.

I could not copy that illustration separately from photos of gel testing, bullets (5.56MM), and other things that were part of the same post.

Under most critical stress situations that is no easy feat even for highly trained individuals.

Also very true, and it requires more than marksmanship skill. It requires a balance of speed and precision, and enough hits with combat accuracy to yield a reasonable likelihood of hitting something critical.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

OldMarksman thank you for the clean up edit of my previous post. I will do my best to find another choice of words that will not be taken as being too vulgar for this forum. I like the civility here, and do not wish to disrupt it.

I agree with what you are getting at. It has been ingrained into me for many years. I was taught by some highly trained individuals that had lots of combat experience. I have heard many say that even with hits to terminal areas combatants can keep going for longer than most people would think possible. It is art, science, skill, if all goes well (almost never does) Lady Luck will smile enough that one survives the deadly incident without sustaining grave physical injuries.

James I wish they would make a GP in .44 Special. I had a Charter Arms Bull Dog snub. My wife confiscated it. It now rides in a holster she wears.

 

[subhuman]

If Ruger ever builds one I will buy it, until then I will keep carrying this Rossi M720; 3" barrel,adjustable sights, 5 shot .44 spc.

 

[Pond James Pond]

Oh and Mr Pond I would like to see one that did not cost so much.

I'll see what I can do with my considerable influence down at Ruger & Sturm's marketing dept.

But, uh... well, just don't hold your breath!!

 

[davidjohn]

Quote

"Elmer Keith wrote an article in Guns and Ammo back in the 1970's and thought his 250 gr bullet with 7.5 gr Unique would be a better SD round than any .357 mag round.

Did he add that it is necessarily a bigger gun or with fewer rounds (5)?"


He was writing about the Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special
See # 57

 

[shootniron]

Cold Steel

If you could get a .44 185-grain moving out the barrel at, say, 1150-1250 fps, five rounds, the gun might actually be worth lugging around!

If you handload...this is no problem.

 

[Real Gun]

Cold Steel - If you could get a .44 185-grain moving out the barrel at, say, 1150-1250 fps, five rounds, the gun might actually be worth lugging around!

shootniron - If you handload...this is no problem.

If the goal was HP expansion, the bullet is already pretty big. I am not accepting that velocity is everything for this caliber.

 

[CajunBass]

Taurus already made (makes?) one. A five shot, K-frame sized, 44 Special. I've seen them with both fixed and adjustable sights, with 3 and 4 inch barrels. I had one not long ago, but sold it to help finance a Smith & Wesson Model 69.

I know Taurus doesn't get a lot of respect around here, but I tell you boys and girls, they got that one right. If I see another one, in blue I will be tempted to buy it again. I'm a big fan of the 44 Special you see.

For now, I get my 44 Special fix with these.

Uberti 1871/72 Open Top Colt replicas.



Easy and fun to shoot. My wife keeps hogging all the ammo when we take them to the range. Even with the tiny rear sight, I can generally hit what I'm shooting at with them.

And the cool factor is just unmatched. Especially when someone asks "45 Colt?"..."Nope, 44 Special."

 

[shootniron]

Real Gun

If the goal was HP expansion, the bullet is already pretty big. I am not accepting that velocity is everything for this caliber.

Real Gun...I am not making the point that velocity is the most important thing in this caliber. Although, if one is shooting HP ammo...a little more velocity is needed for reliable expansion.

I have shot about as much 44 Special as anyone on this forum...and I know that it works very well at moderate velocity with HP or cast bullets. My choice load for the Special is with a 429421 cast bullet...but HP's are a better choice for SD.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

well... I'm not trading off or selling my 396 any time in the near future... stoked with Gold Dots I have never felt undergunned...

... with the aluminum & titainium, the 5 rounds of ammo nearly weighs what the gun does

 

[howl]

A .44 250 gr. bullet @ 1200 fps will do anything needs doing with a handgun. That is literally .44 mag performance from that GP100 .44 Special conversion. I'd ditch my S&W 69 for one. Well, I'd let it sit in its box while I carried the GP-100.

 

[Pond James Pond]

Well, apart from a brief segway into the anticipated calibre war, I'd say those in favour of the idea should call up Ruger and suggest they make some!!

Thanks me later!

 

[Real Gun]

A thin walled forcing cone would not be very "Ruger", would it?

 

[silvermane_1]

heck , i wish that the 41 Mag was more popular, i would rather have 5 shot 41 Mag GP-100 vs a 41 Spl(not a standardize cal anyways) or a 44 Spl(not much difference between 41 cal & a 44 cal, since the 44 is actually a .429-.431 cal, however the 44 can be loaded with heavier bullets), heck a 6 shot 41 mag GP-100 would be ideal.