.460 vs .500

The hot loads with the 230 FMJ averaged 2499 fps. I started them out much lower. It was an experiment to see how much pressure the Precision Delta exposed lead base FMJ bullets would take before the jacket would lift off the core in the muzzle brake. I had spoken to the owner of PD and he could not tell me what kind of load they would take but wanted to know what I found. When I called back with the results the guy nearly jumped through the phone. He never considered these power levels but the bullets performed fine with no leading and no jacket separation in the brake. It had a very tight exit.
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Full disclosure... many of them:
--I realize that you aren't playing with these anymore
--I realize that you aren't recommending this to anyone
--I realize that this was an Encore and -NOT- a revolver
--I realize that I am drifting the the thread also... :p

Simply because I find it interesting and I would like to learn more about it, it makes me want to ask about or at least point out what the risks are when using bullets of a simpler construction for irrationally strong loads... specifically, in revolvers.

I came to this topic because I like to experiment in .327 Federal Magnum and I figured that if we can fling 85 and 100 grain bullets past 1,600 and 1,500 FPS without trying too hard, than the "sky is the limit" with 71gr and 60gr pills made for the .32 ACP as these bullets are the same diameter.

I elected to send an e-mail to the ATK ballisitician (Ben Amonette) and ask for some ideas and his full and firm reaction was that you are seriously risking forcing cone damage when running jacketed bullets (far!) outside their design scope in this manner. He mentioned something about the jacket distorting and the forcing cone taking the brunt of this hammering. It's the reason that many of the jacketed bullet makers developed specific MAGNUM jacketed slugs in .452" for the .454 Casull and (obviously) use in the .460 S&W Magnum. He cautioned me against trying for mindblowing velocities with light bullets in .327 Federal for exactly the same reasons.

These days, I run a Winchester 71gr FMJ (.32 ACP pill) from my 4.2" .327-chambered GP-100 at a chrono'd 1,330 FPS. That's already far beyond what any .32 ACP load could even imagine doing with that slug, and it's a fun, accurate load. It certainly won't drop steel plates with much authority (but it WILL drop most of them!) but it does punch nice groups in paper and it's enjoyable to shoot. My main purpose? I happen to have a LOT of the slugs and jacketed .312" bullets are expensive and these were not.

So yeah, major thread drift, but my point is the same. I like the discussion, but when I read what you did (with great interest! :p) I also want to caution anyone with an X-frame .460 Magnum about the kind of thing they MAY be doing if they wish to replicate your adventures. :eek:
 
Originally posted by Sevens:

I elected to send an e-mail to the ATK ballisitician (Ben Amonette) and ask for some ideas and his full and firm reaction was that you are seriously risking forcing cone damage when running jacketed bullets (far!) outside their design scope in this manner. He mentioned something about the jacket distorting and the forcing cone taking the brunt of this hammering. It's the reason that many of the jacketed bullet makers developed specific MAGNUM jacketed slugs in .452" for the .454 Casull and (obviously) use in the .460 S&W Magnum. He cautioned me against trying for mindblowing velocities with light bullets in .327 Federal for exactly the same reasons.
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This is something I continuously point out to those new to handloading for the .460. In feets case all he had to be concerned about was jacket separation.....but with a FMJ, that chance is much more reduced than a standard cup and core JSP or JHP.

While they work fine for reduced loads......Jacketed bullets intended for .45 Colt velocities are not what you want to run thru your revolver when using legitimate .460 magnum loads. Same goes for any extra light, short for caliber bullet, using slow burning powders in a revolver. Still folks find the .45 Colt bullets for $5 a hundred less and insist on using them @ .460 velocities for deer. Or they got a deal on .451 185 JHPs intended for .45 ACP and think they can hit 3000 fps with them outta their X-Frame. Their gun...their choice.
 
Buck, you mean something like me shoving 335 gr wlnfp out of the barrel at 2053 fps? :D

Sevens, the key difference most people gloss over is the fact that I ran an Encore. My bullets hit the rifling before leaving the brass in most cases. The pressure builds fairly smoothly and consistently.
Your revolver is a much different situation. The bullet will be out of the case before it clears the cylinder. After that it straddles the gap and slams into the forcing cone. The only resistance to the pressure is the crimp. When the bullet slams the cone it corks the pressure later in the curve. That puts a lot more stress on the bullet.

I would avoid nuclear loads in revolvers when using non-nuclear bullets.
 
The .460 is interesting but it ain't a .500. There's something about a +400gr half inch chunk of lead that the speed demon can't match. The 440gr CPBC LBT is reputed to be a fantastic penetrator.
 
Whats the point in shooting such light bullets in the 460? Kinda like shooting 110's out of a 300 WM.
 
A 200 grain bullet out of a 460 gives you a very flat trajectory. When zeroed at 150 yards the bullet will not rise or fall more than a few inches out to nearly 200 yards. If Bambi is out there a little ways it takes very little holdover for a clean shot.
The shooter doesn't have to know the distance down to the inch.

Also, the Hornady and Barnes 200 gr bullets have proven to be very effective on deer.
 
.460 FTW

Getting back to the original question, the answer depends on what you plan to shoot. If the answer is deer, than neither of these are necessary but the .460 is probably better. Traveling at "Ludicrous Speed", even the less expensive 200 gr loads should handle most land animals in North America. I remember reading an article that called the 200 gr load perfect for moose and elk. Of course, they do make heavier hunting loads above 300 gr if you were on a dedicated hunt for bison or great bear.

The real advantage of the 500 revolvers is the ability to fire even heavier loads, upwards of 500 gr! Of course, I'm not sure where you'd actually need to do that. I'll take my .460 any day.
 
^^^ Exactly, the sectional density of a 200gr .452 bullet, (.139) will not give the penetration needed for a really big animal.
 
Also, the Hornady and Barnes 200 gr bullets have proven to be very effective on deer.
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I've never tried the 200 gr Barnes, but from my experience, while extremely accurate, I wouldn't use the 200gr Hornady on anything larger than a coyote. YEMV.
 
^^^ Exactly, the sectional density of a 200gr .452 bullet, (.139) will not give the penetration needed for a really big animal.
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That a CXP1 rating.
.224" (5.56mm) 55 grain, SD .157
.204" (.20) 40 grain, SD .137
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Even light .204 and .224 bullets are laughing at a 200grain .452 bullet.
To put it into perspective further, a 200 grain .452 bullet is comparable to a 90 grain .308 bullet as far as SD. How many people here hunt deer with 90 grain .308 bullets? Even the .30 carbine is laughing with it's standard 110 grain load, the .30 carbine has never been known as a stopper either.
Ethical hunting and killing power of a cartridge is more than just energy delivered.
 
You guys need to get over the SD crisis.

People get so hung up on numbers it isn't even funny.

Energy kills!
SD kills!
Meplat kills!

There are a lot of different ideas on what kills. None of them can stand alone. It takes a combination to get things done. However, I doubt you will find many situations where the 200 gr bullet won't get the job done.

Take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CuOybgmxQ

What do you see happening?
Granted, it's not a critter with squishy innards but if SD was the only thing that mattered why did the bullets go that far?
 
Sectional Density is real, time and flashy guns haven't changed that. Karamojo Bell's 175gr 7X57 penetrated enough for him to kill elephants with it, long high SD bullets. A 200gr .452 is almost as wide as it is long, how many hunters use a 180 in a 444 Marlin, I always figured a larger case opened the door to heavier bullets in the particular caliber. If we were talking about a 300gr .452 slug then it would be a different story.
 
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Let that 200gr 460 strike a bone, you'll wish you had a lowly 30-30 with 170gr instead.
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Have you done it?


I know people who have put the Hornady 200 gr into a shoulder and still had it come out the other side of the deer.


An incredible majority of gun forum guys pound their chest and quote their favorite myths but never actually practice what they preach.

It's like the 30 carbine. It bounced off the North Korean soldiers.
Would you believe the Remington bulk soft point bullets left a one inch exit on the far side of a deer at 95 yards?

Myths abound.

Get out and shoot.
 
SD is a myth now! Thanks for the info. And you ask me if I have ever "done it" and then say you have second hand knowlege about deer having both shoulders penetrated by your 200gr 460.:confused: I'm 53 and been hunting since I was a young boy, I've seen a little bit, but not a 460's aftermath.
 
I don't think the benefits of a high sectional density can be argued against logically. Too much killing has been done to prove that a bullet heavy for its diameter penetrates FAR better than one that is not.
 
Originally posted by feets:

Have you done it?
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I have....@ close range....maybe 15 yards. Thus my suggestion for using them on varmints. As I said, there are better options out there for deer. Don't believe me, shoot them into a sand berm. Then shoot some 240gr and 300 gr XTP-Mags or 300 gr Deep Curls. All you will find of the 200 grainers is a plastic tip and a sheet of copper foil the size of a silver dollar. When you find the others you will find them intact and mushroomed. I know deer are not made of sand and sand does not duplicate soft tissue, but the results are dramatic evidence as to how fragile those 200 grainers are at the speed they are going.
 
Focusing on a single variable like SD...

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen

- John Godfrey Saxe
 
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