The early Delta Elites had very well documented issues with frames cracking. Issues firing 10mm still pop up to this day although most kinks have been worked out. Again, though, the race gun with a sweet trigger is more complex to accomplish when you also have to set the gun up to run heavy loads. I never said it couldn't be done... Just that there are some issues and inarguably some tradeoffs.
.45 +p is good for...
- Thread starter Cosmodragoon
- Start date
The early Delta Elites had very well documented issues with frames cracking. Issues firing 10mm still pop up to this day although most kinks have been worked out. Again, though, the race gun with a sweet trigger is more complex to accomplish when you also have to set the gun up to run heavy loads. I never said it couldn't be done... Just that there are some issues and inarguably some tradeoffs.
1911_Hardball
New member
I understand, and I wasn't challenging what you said nor arguing with it.
I was merely pointing out the the 1911 platform is not a delicate instrument and that the difference between standard and +P .45 ACP loads is minimal compared to the difference between standard. 45 ACP and other calibers, the 10mm included, that it's been demonstrated to be capable of handling.
I was merely pointing out the the 1911 platform is not a delicate instrument and that the difference between standard and +P .45 ACP loads is minimal compared to the difference between standard. 45 ACP and other calibers, the 10mm included, that it's been demonstrated to be capable of handling.
Anything P+, particularly 45 P+, would probably be requisite when the Zombie wars begin. Perhaps less so for now.
On a more serious note I am enjoying the discussion and points made on this thread regarding P+ ammo. My opinion is to shoot anything at the P+ suffix level that makes you happy, just do so safely.
On a more serious note I am enjoying the discussion and points made on this thread regarding P+ ammo. My opinion is to shoot anything at the P+ suffix level that makes you happy, just do so safely.
lashlaruhe
New member
From my 47 years around handguns, +P & +P+ in only required in cartridges that require additional power to do the job. Mostly those that are 0.355" - 0.357" diameter.
Typical spec 1911's don't use a very sophisticated metallurgy.
I don't know what Ruger is using,but they are tech leaders in investment casting. Odds are,they can choose material to make a 10mm1911 hold up.
The RIA 10mm has a heavier,wider slide and bull cone bbl.supported.
No doubt the general JMB scheme will work.
But lets not forget the GI 45 ACP operates at about 18,000 is it CUP? In ever know! 1450 fps 38Super major caliber competition race gun loads break 40,000 psi...with a brake.Pressure matters,but so does 45 vs 9mm/38 recoil.
Case head dia is the surface area the pressure is applied to....for the locking system.Greater dia,more load.
But its recoil operated.The link,slidestop,frame etc get beat up by recoil and,to a greater degree,excessive recoil spring.
You do need to pay attention to goose egg brass and case support.
But for MY 1911,if I want to hot rod,JMB designed for a 16 lb recoil spring.
I'd use an 18 ,one step. But I'd like to tune my load so last round hold open is intermittent with a 20 lb spring. Then I'd put the 18 in.
Don't use heavy recoil springs.(like a 24) They beat the gun to death. Tailor your loads to a 16 or 18 lb spring and call it good
I don't know what Ruger is using,but they are tech leaders in investment casting. Odds are,they can choose material to make a 10mm1911 hold up.
The RIA 10mm has a heavier,wider slide and bull cone bbl.supported.
No doubt the general JMB scheme will work.
But lets not forget the GI 45 ACP operates at about 18,000 is it CUP? In ever know! 1450 fps 38Super major caliber competition race gun loads break 40,000 psi...with a brake.Pressure matters,but so does 45 vs 9mm/38 recoil.
Case head dia is the surface area the pressure is applied to....for the locking system.Greater dia,more load.
But its recoil operated.The link,slidestop,frame etc get beat up by recoil and,to a greater degree,excessive recoil spring.
You do need to pay attention to goose egg brass and case support.
But for MY 1911,if I want to hot rod,JMB designed for a 16 lb recoil spring.
I'd use an 18 ,one step. But I'd like to tune my load so last round hold open is intermittent with a 20 lb spring. Then I'd put the 18 in.
Don't use heavy recoil springs.(like a 24) They beat the gun to death. Tailor your loads to a 16 or 18 lb spring and call it good
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disseminator
New member
For defensive uses I shoot +P 45 ammo in any pistol with a barrel length of 4" or less. That is to aid in expansion of which many gel test will demonstrate can be an issue in short barrel 45 Auto.
I also use 23000 psi for my 45 AR handloads in the SW 625 revolver and like them very much. I can match my 45 Colt loads with many bullets in the 625 @ 23k psi.
And simply if you like a bit more power. The Federal HST 230 grain standard pressure is about 890 fps and the +p is 950. That is a decent increase in performance and is barely perceptible as far as recoil and such.
For plinking loads, there is little need for the +p when one can shoot 230 ball at 880 fps no problem with hand loads.
I also use 23000 psi for my 45 AR handloads in the SW 625 revolver and like them very much. I can match my 45 Colt loads with many bullets in the 625 @ 23k psi.
And simply if you like a bit more power. The Federal HST 230 grain standard pressure is about 890 fps and the +p is 950. That is a decent increase in performance and is barely perceptible as far as recoil and such.
For plinking loads, there is little need for the +p when one can shoot 230 ball at 880 fps no problem with hand loads.
Plus P ammo has a little more punch than standard ammo. It's that simple. If you think you need more power use the Plus P. To me it doesn't seem worth the extra expense for what you get. It also puts extra stress on the gun. Even more concern over the .45 Super in a gun designed for .45 ACP. It just don't seem like a good idea.
My 2 cents................
My 2 cents................
marine6680
New member
Modern hollow point ammo... HST, Gold Dot, Critical Defense... Etc...
Standard pressure loads tend to penetrate farther than the +P loads. I have seen several tests comparing the same load bullet in +P and standard, and the +p pretty consistently penetrates an inch or more less... Depending on the particular bullet under test.
The +p loads expand a little bit more, and they start to expand sooner, this limits penetration.
I want more penetration, it's more important than 0.05" more expansion...
It is actually better to use standard pressure loads now... +P give no practical benefit and really only has downsides, as far as I see.
And your instinct of 45 not really having anything over other caliber options is valid. I don't even look at the venerated 357 mag as having any practical advantage over 9mm for most situations.
Standard pressure loads tend to penetrate farther than the +P loads. I have seen several tests comparing the same load bullet in +P and standard, and the +p pretty consistently penetrates an inch or more less... Depending on the particular bullet under test.
The +p loads expand a little bit more, and they start to expand sooner, this limits penetration.
I want more penetration, it's more important than 0.05" more expansion...
It is actually better to use standard pressure loads now... +P give no practical benefit and really only has downsides, as far as I see.
And your instinct of 45 not really having anything over other caliber options is valid. I don't even look at the venerated 357 mag as having any practical advantage over 9mm for most situations.
disseminator
New member
I agree with you with one point to make: in a full size gun I agree you don't need +P. But when the barrel drops below 4" the +P will bring the bullet performance back into line with the standard pressure from the full size 5" gun.
So in theory if you shoot the standard pressure at 890 fps from a 5" barrel and the +P at 890 fps from a 3.5" barrel the bullet should perform the same.
The velocity loss due to the shorter barrel makes them the same.
You will get a bit more recoil in that small pistol though.
marine6680
New member
Most of the modern stuff performs well even in compact pistols with shorter barrels.
Maybe below 3in you may need to think about stepping up though.
Maybe below 3in you may need to think about stepping up though.
Are +P and magnum cartridges a "Band-Aid" for poor shot placement? I think so. At least for self defense. Hunting with a handgun, well yes, magnum loads are required.
Then there's always "that guy" who will set up next to you at an indoor range, pull out a .357 Mag, .44 Mag or something in +P and shake the cobwebs off the rafters while everyone else is concentrating on precision shot placement with a .22 or center fire softball loads. Ruins it for everyone.
Then there's always "that guy" who will set up next to you at an indoor range, pull out a .357 Mag, .44 Mag or something in +P and shake the cobwebs off the rafters while everyone else is concentrating on precision shot placement with a .22 or center fire softball loads. Ruins it for everyone.
An old geezer's take on this:
The primary goal of +P 45 ACP factory ammunition is to separate hand gunners from their money. They do this by appealing to people who disregard the 100 year history of the 45 ACP. This is particularly effective with those who believe energy is the measure of a handgun rounds effectiveness.
YMMV,
Dave
The primary goal of +P 45 ACP factory ammunition is to separate hand gunners from their money. They do this by appealing to people who disregard the 100 year history of the 45 ACP. This is particularly effective with those who believe energy is the measure of a handgun rounds effectiveness.
YMMV,
Dave
Actually, that's the secondary goal.
The primary goal of those who created +P .45acp ammo was to get a certain amount of revenge on Jeff Cooper - the famed .45 1911 guru - for backing the 10mm AUTO.
See, +P.45 ammo gives .45 gun owners an opportunity, however ephemeral, to play "Sonny Crocket" on Sunday afternoons at the range.
If you actually own and shoot a 10mm pistol regularly, with real 10mm ammo (factory or handloads), you already understand just how absurd the concept of +P .45 ammo is.
Word, my dudenals.
LockedBreech
New member
I carry Gold Dot 124 +P in 9mm and Gold Dot 230-grain standard pressure in .45
Why? Track record. These are two rounds that have worked a lot, and worked well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why? Track record. These are two rounds that have worked a lot, and worked well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I never saw the value in 45 acp in +p only after buying a Beretta storm and finding this data:
https://ballisticsbytheinch.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/some-super-performance-out-of-a-cx4-storm/
overcoming the drag from the length of the barrel along with more time in the barrel to utilize the powder, buffalo bore +p vs. standard ammo in a 5" barrel becomes significant.
https://ballisticsbytheinch.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/some-super-performance-out-of-a-cx4-storm/
overcoming the drag from the length of the barrel along with more time in the barrel to utilize the powder, buffalo bore +p vs. standard ammo in a 5" barrel becomes significant.
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Cosmodragoon
New member
If by "power" you mean energy, then check out this data from Ballistics by the Inch. The energy graphs nicely demonstrate energy over barrel length. Assuming that the ammo selection is representative for the caliber, you can get a general energy ballpark for a given caliber at normal barrel lengths. I was more interested in the actual effect and subsequent practical application of .45 +p, but this is certainly interesting.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
If you actually own and shoot a .45Win Mag pistol regularly, with real .45WinMag ammo (factory or handloads), you already understand just how absurd the concept of the 10mm ammo is.
Ok, the 10mm is more powerful than the .45ACP. and more than ACP+P, fine. But there are bigger more powerful rounds than the 10mm, as well. If you want to spin that wheel, you won't come out on top.