alright, ruger it is. if I had a 50/50 split on the comments I would go with the uberti, but itlooks more like 90% say go with the ruger. ill shop tomorrow and see what I like and can afford. if I buy a ruger Blackhawk, can I just get a 45acp cylinder later on? or are those models built differently?
45 Long Colt
- Thread starter skizzums
- Start date
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
"normally" you would have to send it to Ruger for fitment, the "convertibles" are sent with 2 cylinders...
I have a custom 45 Autorim / 45 Colt gun, & I find I rarely switch cylinders, I think most 22 / 22 Mag owners would say the same... usually you get a favorite cylinder & it stays in the gun...
I have a custom 45 Autorim / 45 Colt gun, & I find I rarely switch cylinders, I think most 22 / 22 Mag owners would say the same... usually you get a favorite cylinder & it stays in the gun...
Poindexter
New member
Late to the party, but I can put the shoe on the other foot...
So you want to buy a Peacemaker clone, what with a factory new Colt SAA MSRPing at $1500?
Ok, real popular gun. The Italian clones are actually very good. External dimensions, internal workings, all very authentic. About a third the price of a NIB Colt. You get the four click thing, you got to carry an empty chamber under the hammer and you are limited to 14k psi - just like the real thing.
Or, for just a few dollars more you can look at a Ruger New Vaquero that is very very close on external dimensions, has very modern internals, should be indestructible - and is rated to 20k psi AND has a transfer bar so you can stuff it with six.
Another option is the Ruger New Blackhawk. Certainly a close cousin in the looks department, but not really a Colt clone. Priced (roughly) between the Italian clones and the Ruger New Vaquero, has all the advantages of the New Vaquero - AND it has adjustable sights AND you can load that one to 32k psi.
So you want to buy a Peacemaker clone, what with a factory new Colt SAA MSRPing at $1500?
Ok, real popular gun. The Italian clones are actually very good. External dimensions, internal workings, all very authentic. About a third the price of a NIB Colt. You get the four click thing, you got to carry an empty chamber under the hammer and you are limited to 14k psi - just like the real thing.
Or, for just a few dollars more you can look at a Ruger New Vaquero that is very very close on external dimensions, has very modern internals, should be indestructible - and is rated to 20k psi AND has a transfer bar so you can stuff it with six.
Another option is the Ruger New Blackhawk. Certainly a close cousin in the looks department, but not really a Colt clone. Priced (roughly) between the Italian clones and the Ruger New Vaquero, has all the advantages of the New Vaquero - AND it has adjustable sights AND you can load that one to 32k psi.
They are not built differently. The .45 Colt BH and the .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible BH are the same gun, just one comes with extra cylinder. If you plan on shooting .45 ACP, I'd buy the convertible up front as then both cylinders would be fitted correctly for your gun from the factory. Just as an FYI, there is also the Lipsey Ruger .45 Colt flattop convertibles (Blued or Stainless) out there built on the medium frame. These happen to be my 'favorite' revolvers. Just be aware of this if looking for convertibles. The flattop will have a 'flattop' (no ears around rear sight) and the serial # will start with three digits xxx-yyyyy instead of the large frame xx-yyyyy
Hawkeye_FH
New member
Poindexter- you said for a few dollars more. That makes me think of this:
Driftwood Johnson
New member
We could go around in circles on this, but for a beginner you should know that Ruger absolutely does not recommend using any thing more powerful in the New Vaquero than standard SAAMI Spec 14,000 psi Max loads. Other folks on the internet have different opinions on this, but the manufacturer will not stand by their implied warranty if anything other than standard ammunition is used and nowhere does Ruger state the New Vaquero is rated up to 20,000 psi.
Yep.... Same with the large frames
. As a manufacturer, you have to stay with 'defined' standards and .45 Colt is 14K PSI (like it or not).... for obvious reasons. It is to bad SAAMI doesn't/didn't publish a .45 Colt +P in the Tier 2 20-23K range as most modern .45 Colt SA revolvers would be able to meet that specification including the New Vaquero....Used Ruger's can be found. I recently found a 2001 produced 4 5/8" barreled Blackhawk convertible in 45 Colt/45acp. It is built on the magnum frame. I got it for $350 with two boxes of Corbon 300gr JSP ammo. The gun is in excellent shape. Then went to Cabela's and another shop and picked up five hundred 250gr Laser Cast RNFP, dies, ammo box, 200 pieces of Starline brass and a pound of Unique with my remaining $150.
Cheapshooter
New member
While I do have a Judge, Public Defender Poly, I also have a Cimarron Colt SAA clone by Uberti in 45 Colt. If you are mostly interested in shooting 45 Colt, as your post implied, I suggest you look to single action revolvers. The low-end Cimarron I have shoots well, and was half the price you posted. Other models are available with a more "pretty" finish as well.
What just screams "Colt 45" louder than a Single Action Army copy?
As a side note, I have never had any of the alleged accuracy problems with my Taurus PD Poly shooting 45 Colt. But being a short barrel revolver I am not looking for golf ball diameter groups @ 25 yards either. Bowling balls wouldn't be a problem though.
What just screams "Colt 45" louder than a Single Action Army copy?
As a side note, I have never had any of the alleged accuracy problems with my Taurus PD Poly shooting 45 Colt. But being a short barrel revolver I am not looking for golf ball diameter groups @ 25 yards either. Bowling balls wouldn't be a problem though.
bedbugbilly
New member
skizzums - great thread! I've enjoyed reading the posts!
I'm sort of like you. I've shot SA for 50 years. I cast my own and reload - primarily 38 specials and 9mm - I have a half dozen 38s to shoot - SA and DA - primarily vintage Smiths and I love my Ruger NV SA. I'm getting the "itch" as well to load another cartridge and have been wavering between a 44 spl. and a 45 Colt. For some reason, I am still leaning towards the 45 Colt primarily because of the history of the cartridge.
I'm also looking at one of the 1873 Ubertis - I have had other Uberti revolvers and they have all been good shooters. While I'd love to have a "true Colt" - I can't justify the price of one for the amount I'll be shooting it.
As they say . . "all the best laid plans" . . .
I think the only way I'll be able to decide on the caliber/cartridge is to buy the pistol first - then buy the dies, brass and mold. Which came first . . "the chicken or the egg?" I've know fellows who buy holsters so they have the excuse to buy a pistol to fit it! :roll eyes:
Good luck in whichever way you go - let us know what you decide. Regardless of which caliber - you'll have fun!
I'm sort of like you. I've shot SA for 50 years. I cast my own and reload - primarily 38 specials and 9mm - I have a half dozen 38s to shoot - SA and DA - primarily vintage Smiths and I love my Ruger NV SA. I'm getting the "itch" as well to load another cartridge and have been wavering between a 44 spl. and a 45 Colt. For some reason, I am still leaning towards the 45 Colt primarily because of the history of the cartridge.
I'm also looking at one of the 1873 Ubertis - I have had other Uberti revolvers and they have all been good shooters. While I'd love to have a "true Colt" - I can't justify the price of one for the amount I'll be shooting it.
As they say . . "all the best laid plans" . . .
I think the only way I'll be able to decide on the caliber/cartridge is to buy the pistol first - then buy the dies, brass and mold. Which came first . . "the chicken or the egg?" I've know fellows who buy holsters so they have the excuse to buy a pistol to fit it! :roll eyes:Good luck in whichever way you go - let us know what you decide. Regardless of which caliber - you'll have fun!
still haven't decided, went to a couple places today with not a huge inventory. I have my preference narrowed down a tiny bit. first off I don't care about loading the hottest loads, but I don't want to be limited at 14k either. I want would prefer to have the option to add a 45acp cylinder in the future(but not a deal-breaker), under 650$ OUT-THE-DOOR!! and the most important thing that is a must is adjustable sight. I need a little more research and hands on time, and my purchase will not be until 2 weeks from today. if I find a great deal in the next two weeks that I cant pass up, ill throw it on layaway which will probably save me from a $$ discussion anyways. if I decide that a higher end gun is a must, I have a Mossberg 715T .22 with 1200 rounds of ammo that I may end up selling. I never use it and I know 22 ammo goes for a premiuim ATM. so that would free up another couple hundred $$ if I needed it. we shall see, ill keep my narrowing down updated. I am still reading your opinions and taking them into consideration. so thank you and keep em coming. also pics and fair price of these glorious guns you are recommending would be a great help
also, just how fragile in the cimmaron? will I HAVE to stay at aenimc factory loads?
p.s. its the not the velocity of the loads I am concerned about, but I would like to push 300+ grain bullets fast enough to be accurate. do I need to take into consideration of twists rates of these various guns? or are they all pretty much standard
Taurus is out, unless I can find a 4+ inch barrel with deeper rifling
also, just how fragile in the cimmaron? will I HAVE to stay at aenimc factory loads?
p.s. its the not the velocity of the loads I am concerned about, but I would like to push 300+ grain bullets fast enough to be accurate. do I need to take into consideration of twists rates of these various guns? or are they all pretty much standard
Taurus is out, unless I can find a 4+ inch barrel with deeper rifling
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Hunter Customs
New member
Cimarron has a dual cylinder SA revolver (45acp/45Colt).
I've heard it said that the Uberti guns are pressure tested to 23000 PSI, but I don't have that in writing from a good source so I'm not saying that's true.
To me it's a moot point as I have a load for deer hunting that's pushing a 255gr SWC at 945 fps which is plenty good enough for any white tail I'll get a shot at in Missouri, I've killed white tail with a 45ACP.
I don't need adjustable sights, the fixed sights on my Cimarron are fine by me.
I've been practicing shooting clay pigeons setting on a dirt bank at different yardages, from 25 to 50 yards, I don't plan on taking any shots at deer past 50yards.
I was testing some loads with my Cimarron today using 255gr SWC bullets and HS6, I don't know what the velocity is as I did not set up my chronograph.
However if the velocity is around 950 fps this will be my new hunting load as this load sure is accurate.
I believe I have a little over 1200 rounds through my Cimarron model P now, I know that's not much but I have not had the gun that long, so far I've had no issues with the gun.
I do know this, the more I shoot it the harder it gets to put the gun down.
If I was wanting to hot rod the 45 Colt cartridge (which I don't) I would have to take a serious look at the Freedom Arms SA revolvers in 45 Colt, from what I understand the lock up on them is bank vault tough and that 5 shot cylinder is thick.
As I said before best of luck with what ever you choose to buy, load safe and enjoy.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
I've heard it said that the Uberti guns are pressure tested to 23000 PSI, but I don't have that in writing from a good source so I'm not saying that's true.
To me it's a moot point as I have a load for deer hunting that's pushing a 255gr SWC at 945 fps which is plenty good enough for any white tail I'll get a shot at in Missouri, I've killed white tail with a 45ACP.
I don't need adjustable sights, the fixed sights on my Cimarron are fine by me.
I've been practicing shooting clay pigeons setting on a dirt bank at different yardages, from 25 to 50 yards, I don't plan on taking any shots at deer past 50yards.
I was testing some loads with my Cimarron today using 255gr SWC bullets and HS6, I don't know what the velocity is as I did not set up my chronograph.
However if the velocity is around 950 fps this will be my new hunting load as this load sure is accurate.
I believe I have a little over 1200 rounds through my Cimarron model P now, I know that's not much but I have not had the gun that long, so far I've had no issues with the gun.
I do know this, the more I shoot it the harder it gets to put the gun down.
If I was wanting to hot rod the 45 Colt cartridge (which I don't) I would have to take a serious look at the Freedom Arms SA revolvers in 45 Colt, from what I understand the lock up on them is bank vault tough and that 5 shot cylinder is thick.
As I said before best of luck with what ever you choose to buy, load safe and enjoy.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
This is one of the myths that has cropped up on the internet claiming 45 Colt revolvers are capable of withstanding higher pressures than Sammi spec Max of 14,000 psi. It hasn't been helped by a video on the internet that erroneously claims that Ubertis are tested with proof loads that deliver three times the maximum pressure.
Regardless of how much pressure some experts feel (rightly or wrongly) a revolver can withstand, all Italian revolvers are proofed in government run proof houses. Standard proof loads develop about 30% more pressure than industry standard maximum loads. SAAMI maximum pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi. So the proof load would generate about 18,200 psi. Not 23,000 psi. That is what Uberti guns are tested to. And only one or two rounds are fired so as not to over stress the firearm.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
VTI Gun Parts sells parts for Uberti and other Italian SAA clones. You can buy a .45 ACP cylinder from them. It may drop in or it may require fitting -- I've had them go both ways. It just depends on how lucky you are.
Just for a comparison of loads in different ranges look through this, if you haven't already, Brian Pearce .45 Colt 45-270-SAA
When you consider that the loads listed here cover such a wide aspect of the different revolvers out there today, you can easily get by without working up into the higher octane loads.
I am shooting a Redhawk which if the past 30yrs or so with the other two in 41 and 44 magnum, are any indication of how well they handle upper limit loads, I could really stretch the 45 Colt out. That said I have found that I or most who shoot the Colt have no real reason to load to the higher pressures unless it is for hunting big nasty things that will hunt you back. You will find that even with the modest loads running 1000fps or less, these big chunks of lead will just plow right on through most things with not, much if any, reservation.
I have one of the MP molds in the 45-270 SAA version and must say that it is plenty for anything I would eve need to put it through. I know your looking into the 300gr loads, but in my testing they simply haven't done anything I couldn't do with the slightly lighter bullets a bit more accurately. To be honest my most accurate load is the Lee 452-255RF loaded over around 8-9grs of Unique. These run just under 1000fps out of my 7.5" barrel and will usually shoot very close to a 1" ragged hole if I am on my game.
I did suggest the Ruger convertible, as to me for an entry level revolver for someone who is running things on a tight budget already, it is simply getting two revolvers for the price of one. On the one hand you have the cheaper ACP which even if you don't reload you can still find fairly cheap ammo to practice with and at least end up with your own once fired brass. Even if you went the full reloading route you can find once fired ACP for sale in a lot of the forums a whole lot cheaper than the Colt brass. As for loads, you can also use a LOT of 45 cal bullets with the revolver that might play hell with the auto version. Like I mentioned before, it is pretty easy to run the 255gr bullets out of the ACP cases using the revolver and still stay within ACP pressures.
The flip side to that is the Colt cylinder. You can pick up 500 Starline cases and be for the most part set for life if your sticking with standard loads and not crimping the daylights out of them. Those medium to heavy .452 bullets as mentioned above will still rock even at the standard velocities.
For a long time I was an impulse shopper in that I would jump into things without much regard to what everything else had to offer. I purchased the latest greatest fishing reels when I was fishing tournaments that were faster smoother and yada yada. With my rifles well I wanted similar criteria, and didn't look to see that something only a little different could offer me a lot more in the long run. Now I look to see not only what it can do for the intended purpose, but what else I can incorporate into it. Now my fishing reels are the old Garcia's which will handle most any fish the line can handle and they are tough as nails, like the Rugers. Not pretty or fancy but will work a lifetime, and are built like tanks. Most every rifle I have is off the '06 or 308 case. I can use the same brass for nearly all of them in which ever size is needed. So I get more bang for my buck when I purchased the standard cases in bulk, even i I don't size them up, down, or blow them out to different calibers.
Like I mentioned, I am looking for the BH Convertible for the wife. The smaller grips and lighter weight will allow her to shoot with me, and be comfortable while doing so with the ACP cylinder. Not that she is recoil shy, but she is only 5'1", and those RH's are a bit much for her stretched out at arms length. The recoil isn't an issue as she learned to shoot revolvers with top end loads through my then scoped 44 from a rest. The first day she shot her new GP-100, she stood up after loading it, and rolled six rounds into the 3" bull at 25yds. She likes to shoot, just not with the heavy weight revolvers I like. With the BH, she will be able to come out and shoot with me, and when she doesn't I will swap out the cylinders and go have fun on my own. Oh and it will also be a bit part of my grandson's learning to shoot revolvers as well. So the advantages are there, I just have to find the one I am looking for when I have the cash to pick it up.
Hope this helps,
So not considering the 300gr weights, which some folks find they cannot live without, I haven't really seen the need for them in the Colt. The wide variety of styles in lesser weight bullets has had me plenty happy. There really is something magical about an old SWC sticking up outta one of those fat cases that just does something for me.
When you consider that the loads listed here cover such a wide aspect of the different revolvers out there today, you can easily get by without working up into the higher octane loads.
I am shooting a Redhawk which if the past 30yrs or so with the other two in 41 and 44 magnum, are any indication of how well they handle upper limit loads, I could really stretch the 45 Colt out. That said I have found that I or most who shoot the Colt have no real reason to load to the higher pressures unless it is for hunting big nasty things that will hunt you back. You will find that even with the modest loads running 1000fps or less, these big chunks of lead will just plow right on through most things with not, much if any, reservation.
I have one of the MP molds in the 45-270 SAA version and must say that it is plenty for anything I would eve need to put it through. I know your looking into the 300gr loads, but in my testing they simply haven't done anything I couldn't do with the slightly lighter bullets a bit more accurately. To be honest my most accurate load is the Lee 452-255RF loaded over around 8-9grs of Unique. These run just under 1000fps out of my 7.5" barrel and will usually shoot very close to a 1" ragged hole if I am on my game.
I did suggest the Ruger convertible, as to me for an entry level revolver for someone who is running things on a tight budget already, it is simply getting two revolvers for the price of one. On the one hand you have the cheaper ACP which even if you don't reload you can still find fairly cheap ammo to practice with and at least end up with your own once fired brass. Even if you went the full reloading route you can find once fired ACP for sale in a lot of the forums a whole lot cheaper than the Colt brass. As for loads, you can also use a LOT of 45 cal bullets with the revolver that might play hell with the auto version. Like I mentioned before, it is pretty easy to run the 255gr bullets out of the ACP cases using the revolver and still stay within ACP pressures.
The flip side to that is the Colt cylinder. You can pick up 500 Starline cases and be for the most part set for life if your sticking with standard loads and not crimping the daylights out of them. Those medium to heavy .452 bullets as mentioned above will still rock even at the standard velocities.
For a long time I was an impulse shopper in that I would jump into things without much regard to what everything else had to offer. I purchased the latest greatest fishing reels when I was fishing tournaments that were faster smoother and yada yada. With my rifles well I wanted similar criteria, and didn't look to see that something only a little different could offer me a lot more in the long run. Now I look to see not only what it can do for the intended purpose, but what else I can incorporate into it. Now my fishing reels are the old Garcia's which will handle most any fish the line can handle and they are tough as nails, like the Rugers. Not pretty or fancy but will work a lifetime, and are built like tanks. Most every rifle I have is off the '06 or 308 case. I can use the same brass for nearly all of them in which ever size is needed. So I get more bang for my buck when I purchased the standard cases in bulk, even i I don't size them up, down, or blow them out to different calibers.
Like I mentioned, I am looking for the BH Convertible for the wife. The smaller grips and lighter weight will allow her to shoot with me, and be comfortable while doing so with the ACP cylinder. Not that she is recoil shy, but she is only 5'1", and those RH's are a bit much for her stretched out at arms length. The recoil isn't an issue as she learned to shoot revolvers with top end loads through my then scoped 44 from a rest. The first day she shot her new GP-100, she stood up after loading it, and rolled six rounds into the 3" bull at 25yds. She likes to shoot, just not with the heavy weight revolvers I like. With the BH, she will be able to come out and shoot with me, and when she doesn't I will swap out the cylinders and go have fun on my own. Oh and it will also be a bit part of my grandson's learning to shoot revolvers as well. So the advantages are there, I just have to find the one I am looking for when I have the cash to pick it up.
Hope this helps,
So not considering the 300gr weights, which some folks find they cannot live without, I haven't really seen the need for them in the Colt. The wide variety of styles in lesser weight bullets has had me plenty happy. There really is something magical about an old SWC sticking up outta one of those fat cases that just does something for me.
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Hunter Customs
New member
Driftwood Johnson, I'm not disregarding or disputing what you say here.
However I would love to have the info in actual PSI or CUP on Uberti's proof loads or info on someone that proofed a Uberti and at what PSI or CUP the gun let go.
Could you steer me in the direction to where I might find this info?
As I've said before I have no intentions of hot rodding my Cimarron or any of my SA 45 Colt guns for that matter, I'm just curious.
I have magnum revolvers if I feel I need to step things up a notch.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Driftwood Johnson
New member
The purpose of proof testing is not to see what pressure will cause a firearm to fail, it is to see that the firearm survives the pressure generated from proof loads of known pressure.
Here is a link to a SAAMI pdf file showing the maximum pressures that SAAMI recommends any firearm be limited to. You are interested in the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) column. Remember to add two zeros to the values. Scroll down and you will see the SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf
Here are a couple of articles that define revolver proof loads as 1.3 times the standard Maximum loads. You said you had heard that Ubertis were 'pressure tested' to 23,000 psi. I am merely correcting that misunderstanding. You are not the first one to have made it.
http://www.mdwguns.com/CIP.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/big_deal_about_proof.htm
These are the loads the government proof houses in Italy use to proof Uberti revolvers. Unlike in the US, where SAAMI is a volunteer organization and proofing is not mandated by law, in Europe it is mandated. Firearms cannot be sold in Europe until they have been proofed in a government proofing house. This is not sample testing, each firearm has to be proofed.
All of this has nothing to do with various individuals taking the 45 Colt to different extremes. This is what the regulating bodies say.
Have you ever taken a good look at how thin the chamber walls are on a Colt or Uberti revolver chambered for 45 Colt? I was at an auction with a friend recently and he had never realized how thin the metal actually is. This photo shows an Uberti Cattleman cylinder on the left and a Colt 2nd Gen SAA cylinder on the right. Look how thin that metal is. What you can't see is how very thin the metal is between the bottom of the locking bolt slot and the chamber walls. It is even thinner. That is where most cylinders actually fail, the failure starts at the thin point at the bottom of the locking slots and propagates from there. Compare those two cylinders to the 'original model' Ruger Vaquero cylinder in the center. You can visibly see how much more metal is there. What you can't see is Ruger shifted the position of the locking slot so it is no longer over the thinnest portion of the chamber wall. These two features are why the 'original model' Vaquero and standard model Blackhawks are so much stronger than a traditional colt style single action revolver.
As an aside, I took a tour of the Remington plant in Ilion NY a bunch of years ago. I saw them proofing rifles. Yes, even though they are not mandated to do it, many American firearm manufacturers do proof their products. There were several stands set up to proof the rifles. The rifle was mounted on the stand, and loaded with a proof round. Then a cover was lowered over the rifle to protect in case of failure. The muzzles of the rifles were directed through ports into a room that stopped the bullets. The rifles were fired remotely by pushing a button or yanking a lanyard, I really don't remember. Then the cover was opened, the rifle removed, and the proof mark stamped onto it. I did not ask what the proof pressures were of the cartridges. However one of the workers said it is always interesting when a rifle blows up. I could not tell if he was joking.