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.45 in combat
- Thread starter rmocarsky
- Start date
This also deserves a look.
Charles W. Davis
Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army, 25th Infantry Division.
Place and date: Guadalcanal Island, 12 January 1943.
Entered service at: Montgomery, Ala.
Birth: Gordo, Ala.
G.O. No.: 40, 17 July 1943.
Citation: For distinguishing himself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy on Guadalcanal Island. On 12 January 1943, Maj. Davis (then Capt.), executive officer of an infantry battalion, volunteered to carry instructions to the leading companies of his battalion which had been caught in crossfire from Japanese machineguns. With complete disregard for his own safety, he made his way to the trapped units, delivered the instructions, supervised their execution, and remained overnight in this exposed position. On the following day, Maj. Davis again volunteered to lead an assault on the Japanese position which was holding up the advance. When his rifle jammed at its first shot, he drew his pistol (M1911) and, waving his men on, led the assault over the top of the hill. Electrified by this action, another body of soldiers followed and seized the hill. The capture of this position broke Japanese resistance and the battalion was then able to proceed and secure the corps objective. The courage and leadership displayed by Maj. Davis inspired the entire battalion and unquestionably led to the success of its attack.
Congressional Medal of Honor Citations, U.S. Army Center of Military History
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm
This is the story of Lt. Patrick Regan. Even an empty 1911 can work.
2nd Lt. Patrick Regan
Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, 115th Infantry, 29th Division.
Pace and date: Bois-de-Consenvoye, France, 8 October 1918.
Entered service at: Los Angeles, Calif.
Birth: Middleboro, Mass.
G.O. No.: 50, W.D., 1919.
Citation: While leading his platoon against a strong enemy machinegun nest which had held up the advance of 2 companies, 2d Lt. Regan divided his men into 3 groups, sending 1 group to either flank, and he himself attacking with an automatic rifle team from the front. Two of the team were killed outright, while 2d Lt. Regan and the third man were seriously wounded, the latter unable to advance. Although severely wounded, 2d Lt. Regan dashed with empty [M1911] pistol into the machinegun nest, capturing 30 Austrian gunners and 4 machineguns. This gallant deed permitted the companies to advance, avoiding a terrific enemy fire. Despite his wounds, he continued to lead his platoon forward until ordered to the rear by his commanding officer.
Congressional Medal of Honor Citations, U.S. Army Center of Military History
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm
A sniper named Shugart carried a 45 (like Chris Kyle).
you can read more here:
http://sightm1911.com/lib/legends/rdshughart.htm
Randall D. Shughart
Rank and organization: Sergeant First Class, U.S. Army.
Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia.
Entered service at: —–
Born: Newville, Pennsylvania.
Citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a [M1911] pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot’s life. Sergeant First Class Shughart’s extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.
Congressional Medal of Honor Citations, U.S. Army Center of Military History
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm
you can read more here:
http://sightm1911.com/lib/legends/rdshughart.htm
One last one from Viet Nam. The 45 in combat.
If You’re Serious, Get a .45! or The Colt M1911A1 in Combat
John E. Holbrook
In early July 1967 I was sent to South Vietnam to try to determine why many of the 500 lb. bombs being delivered by naval aircraft were not detonating. I had extensive experience with both conventional and nuclear weapons. The VC would dig up these duds, melt out the Amatol and use the explosive to manufacture crude but very effective anti-personnel booby traps. I was assigned an EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) team and we would be escorted by whatever Army or Marine units were available for protection. We would remove the fuses and detonate the bombs.
On July 13, 1967, while on one of these missions, we were attacked by a force of approximately 50 Viet Cong. As the attack developed my M16A1 jammed, which left me unarmed. I came across a wounded Marine officer, Captain Eldon M. Martin lying in a rice paddy. Captain Martin, although severely wounded was alert and indicated that he was lying on an M14, which was under water and that he had a fully loaded .45 pistol in his holster.
As I removed the Colt M1911A1 .45 automatic (serial # 23002XX) from the Captain, I observed three VC armed with AK-47s moving toward me in a crouched position through the thick grass which was about 2 meters high. I waited until they were within about 4 meters from me. I rose to a kneeling position using the grass as a shield. I put the front sight of the Colt on the man on the left and pulled the trigger. The man in the middle went down! I had jerked the trigger and was very lucky to have gotten a hit. I then moved back to the man on the left, held my breath and fired again. This round hit the man on the left in the chest and he went down. The last man realized what was happening and began firing his AK in my direction. I could see the bullets hitting the water in front of me as he brought the AK up. I fired my third round which hit the magazine of the AK, then glanced down striking him in the right leg. As he spun around from the impact of the 230 grain bullet, I fired two more rounds one of which hit him in the temple just above the left eye. The gunfight was over!
This action lasted not more that 4 seconds and I got four hits with five rounds of GI 230 grain hardball from a pistol that had mud and water in it. All of these hits were one shot stops against three men armed with automatic weapons. God bless the .45 ACP.
I must thank my father, who was the Sheriff of San Patricio County, Texas during World War II. He carried a Colt Government Model and I was shooting the big Colt when I was 10. I was a very good shot with both pistol and rifle very early in life and took my first deer when I was 11. I must also thank John Browning and Colt for inventing and producing the finest combat pistol ever made, bar none. I believe that if I had been armed with a 9MM, both our names would be on the Vietnam Memorial Wall in Washington D.C.
Captain Martin, although badly wounded, survived the action. He insisted that I keep the Colt and I still have it. The greatest honor was when he named his first son after me in 1971. Unfortunately, Captain Martin died in 1991 of MLS. He was a good man, I miss him as I do all the fine young Americans who died in Vietnam.
After that action, I “lost” the M16 and acquired an M14, and I was in love.
John E. Holbrook
Chief Aviation Machinist Mate
U.S. Navy (Retired)
SN 361-43-78
I never used it in combat, and I see a lot of statements of how inaccurate it is. Worn out equipment is not as accurate as it once was, but within normal emergency use range line issued pistols worked. I believe most "inaccurate" stories are result of adrenaline induced distance judgement errors.
Now, for my tale....while on the USAF Comnat Control Team, we were issued .45s, mine was a Smith Corona, and at my first qualification I shot the batter boards, floor and walls. When I got back to the section, my NCIOC took me to the conex container that held our weapons, and gave me an ammo box of .45s and said I had a permanent spot on that range intil I qualed expert
Now, the aircrews had .38 combat master pieceses, and had to go thru all the care and feeding training for the .38s. One class in the morn and one in the afternoon.
I only had to show up for the actual shooting....12 aircrew on the left and me at position #24, all the way on the right at the indoor range.
I had never shot a handgun before one was issued to me at my first assignment. We all know the .45 does require some getting used to. I was fortunate that one of the instructors was a past member of the USAF Pistol team.
He helped me past the noise, recoil, proper grip and stance. I was able qualify well before running out of ammo, but I didn't until just before the end of the ammo. I still have that ammo can 54 years later.
My point is....I think there were a lot of folks issued .45s without proper training and naturaly when it was needed most "the .45 was inaccurate".
My experience, and opinion only....
Now, for my tale....while on the USAF Comnat Control Team, we were issued .45s, mine was a Smith Corona, and at my first qualification I shot the batter boards, floor and walls. When I got back to the section, my NCIOC took me to the conex container that held our weapons, and gave me an ammo box of .45s and said I had a permanent spot on that range intil I qualed expert
Now, the aircrews had .38 combat master pieceses, and had to go thru all the care and feeding training for the .38s. One class in the morn and one in the afternoon.
I only had to show up for the actual shooting....12 aircrew on the left and me at position #24, all the way on the right at the indoor range.
I had never shot a handgun before one was issued to me at my first assignment. We all know the .45 does require some getting used to. I was fortunate that one of the instructors was a past member of the USAF Pistol team.
He helped me past the noise, recoil, proper grip and stance. I was able qualify well before running out of ammo, but I didn't until just before the end of the ammo. I still have that ammo can 54 years later.
My point is....I think there were a lot of folks issued .45s without proper training and naturaly when it was needed most "the .45 was inaccurate".
My experience, and opinion only....
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I knew this same John Holbrook who lived in Bellingham WA, until he passed away 8 or 10 years back. This guy was a regular at the Washington Arms Collector gun shows with his great display of 1911s, including being the most knowledgeable person on that subject I ever met. And a great person to talk to.
And he patented and sold the "Holbrook Device" which replaces a part in the M1 Garand and keeps the empty clip from ejecting until the shooter presses the release. I used one for a time when my gun club (Seattle Police Athletic Assoc.) did not allow more than one round in a rifle at a time. I just left the clip in and rolled a round into it while keeping the op-rod back, doing both with my right hand. Then released the bolt and fired another round.
Bart Noir
And he patented and sold the "Holbrook Device" which replaces a part in the M1 Garand and keeps the empty clip from ejecting until the shooter presses the release. I used one for a time when my gun club (Seattle Police Athletic Assoc.) did not allow more than one round in a rifle at a time. I just left the clip in and rolled a round into it while keeping the op-rod back, doing both with my right hand. Then released the bolt and fired another round.
Bart Noir
rmocarsky: I was assigned to Viet Nam in 68 & 69 as a INF Platoon Leader and then in 71 & 72 as a Huey Pilot. I carried and used a 1911 in 45 acp both tours. Never had a one of them malfunction in any way, what so ever. The few times I actuality used my 1911 in combat, what I experienced was that if I hit my target in the chest area front or back they went down permanently. But I carried a CAR-15 or a M-2 Carbine 95% of the time. I darn sure didn`t want to push my luck for no reason.
ken
ken
chuck jones
New member
Yeah my father was a Navigator in B-24s, 15th AF 454th BG, 737th Sq., and one day just before engine start for a mission he realized he'd forgotten his .45. Then all of a sudden something told him he wasn't gonna make it back without it.
He jumped off the aircraft, commandeered a truck and driver, drove back to his tent, got his .45, and caught the plane on the taxiway 2 bombers away from takeoff.
He jumped off the aircraft, commandeered a truck and driver, drove back to his tent, got his .45, and caught the plane on the taxiway 2 bombers away from takeoff.
Ah the memories.
I was a kid in the 80's -- every other yard sale had a WWII canteen if not a 45 holster for sale or better and we kids ended up playing with them -- now they are collectable. Who knew it would come to pass... lots of WWII 45's around wish i had every single one of them.
My thoughts from the family I had and their close friends... what was said at various time -- this is 25-30 persons over 20 years or so recollections I have filed away...
WWII --
Those who had a handgun wanted the 1911. NO ONE wanted a revolver... did't matter the caliber but most mentioned was 38, have yet to meet a vet who carried a 1918 revolver... Don't know why and never asked but there was a lot of hate if one did not have an "automatic" I put that one in my mind to "new age" -- remember this was the time when by 1970 or so we were all supposed to be commuting in helicopters. I think there was a lot of emphasis on new and better and the auto just fit with that bill way better. ..... frankly from my life experience if I had to pick a martial US hand gun in WWII for 7 in the mag for a 1911 vs. 6 in a 1918 revolver I'd likely go revolver if I was really in the crud.... just me.
Those who did not have a hand gun "did't want one" -- I suspect that was sour grapes and at the time had they been handed one they would have taken it.
No one complained about the 45's stopping power -- what would they have asked for ? A 50? I don't; think stopping power came about as a widespread concept and matter for debate until gun rags, etc. 1-2 decades or more latter. Also compared with 30-06 as a rifle round it's clear it's not that so I suppose everyone accepted it's less than a rifle rather than praying it's almost as good...
No one in the European theater spoke of death of the enemy so much as making sure they stopped whatever they were doing or went away.... in the pacific Death is mentioned and making sure (take that as you may) gets mentioned. Cutural / fighting differences.
More than anything the WWII folks seemed to like the idea of a grip safety -- sleeping with a pistol, carrying it without a holster etc. were all mentioned and the grip safety given as a reason for no fear. Not perhaps how we think of things today. I was surprised... I know from reading back then the 1911 manual of arms was to carry empty chamber, never met someone who seriously did that under combat conditions.
Lots of mention of the ability to "pick things up" in the heat of battle -- US arms acquired thus were far preferred for ammo supply AND longevity -- unless you got wounded or went to the hospital until the end / going home it was yours -- NON-US stuff every so often someone would say get rid of the kraut guns or whatever and they would dump / send home / hide whatever. All bets were off if you were wounded, if you are lucky you got your GI stuff and letters back but anything extra US or otherwise evaporated. No one was bitter about this -- they took it as a given... guess at the time some industries were considered corrupt and thats just how it goes.
Every gun jammed in the mud, crud and sand. The thompson was the most complained about.... These guys had a constant battle to keep thing clean, lubed and working, likely in ways we can barely imagine. They also lived in a puddle of petroleum products literally, from the DDT to the cosomoline, to the gas for cig lighters to gun oil and grease.... it is amazing everyone was not dead with cancer by 1955. 30 years latter I can still smell in my mind GI tents and blankets that were 40 years old when I was a kid...
Lots of folks loved the MI carbine and the thompson, the M1 Garand while a magnificent rifle was a lot of gun and not "handy". Anyone who could trade away likely did. I was surprised by how many folks found a way to have an extra this or that ... no always a weapon but you name it... folks got by, found extra and made do. Call it the American can - do spirit and I admire and am inspired by it to this day.
Few of the WWII folks I knew had formal / range use of the 1911 -- also all were on the job trained and liked it. Many reported great shots with it at decent ranges, plugging rats or cans...
Vietnam --
No one seemed happy with their weapons.
1911 -- rattle trap that was hard to qualify with -- I am guessing single hand 25 yard ranges and so on... I have to say love old pistols... hate their sights... ransom rest an old 1911 some time... it might surprise you but don't expect close to that with the sights they have on them..
M16 -- all the usual complaints everyone has seen in print 1000 times...
M14 -- too heavy, don't shoot it full auto, too little ammo / ammo too heavy.
Every vietnam vet said they wanted a handgun, and many reported a wide variety of official and unofficial sourced guns, for on base, in town use. No one wanted to visibly carry a handgun lest they be singled out for sniper or other attention. A few mentioned fearing some elements of their own countrymen over there.
3 folks i know mentioned the BHP as being "the gun" to have, none did though and none even saw one in country, at most some had commercial revolvers the rest went without, finding a 1911 if not authorized one seemed an impossibility which was not the impression I got form all the WWII family.
Hope that sheds a little light, makes me sad for the face the tellers of these stores have passed on. Keep your family close folks, time passes and we don't even know it sometimes until it's too late.
I was a kid in the 80's -- every other yard sale had a WWII canteen if not a 45 holster for sale or better and we kids ended up playing with them -- now they are collectable. Who knew it would come to pass... lots of WWII 45's around wish i had every single one of them.
My thoughts from the family I had and their close friends... what was said at various time -- this is 25-30 persons over 20 years or so recollections I have filed away...
WWII --
Those who had a handgun wanted the 1911. NO ONE wanted a revolver... did't matter the caliber but most mentioned was 38, have yet to meet a vet who carried a 1918 revolver... Don't know why and never asked but there was a lot of hate if one did not have an "automatic" I put that one in my mind to "new age" -- remember this was the time when by 1970 or so we were all supposed to be commuting in helicopters. I think there was a lot of emphasis on new and better and the auto just fit with that bill way better. ..... frankly from my life experience if I had to pick a martial US hand gun in WWII for 7 in the mag for a 1911 vs. 6 in a 1918 revolver I'd likely go revolver if I was really in the crud.... just me.
Those who did not have a hand gun "did't want one" -- I suspect that was sour grapes and at the time had they been handed one they would have taken it.
No one complained about the 45's stopping power -- what would they have asked for ? A 50? I don't; think stopping power came about as a widespread concept and matter for debate until gun rags, etc. 1-2 decades or more latter. Also compared with 30-06 as a rifle round it's clear it's not that so I suppose everyone accepted it's less than a rifle rather than praying it's almost as good...
No one in the European theater spoke of death of the enemy so much as making sure they stopped whatever they were doing or went away.... in the pacific Death is mentioned and making sure (take that as you may) gets mentioned. Cutural / fighting differences.
More than anything the WWII folks seemed to like the idea of a grip safety -- sleeping with a pistol, carrying it without a holster etc. were all mentioned and the grip safety given as a reason for no fear. Not perhaps how we think of things today. I was surprised... I know from reading back then the 1911 manual of arms was to carry empty chamber, never met someone who seriously did that under combat conditions.
Lots of mention of the ability to "pick things up" in the heat of battle -- US arms acquired thus were far preferred for ammo supply AND longevity -- unless you got wounded or went to the hospital until the end / going home it was yours -- NON-US stuff every so often someone would say get rid of the kraut guns or whatever and they would dump / send home / hide whatever. All bets were off if you were wounded, if you are lucky you got your GI stuff and letters back but anything extra US or otherwise evaporated. No one was bitter about this -- they took it as a given... guess at the time some industries were considered corrupt and thats just how it goes.
Every gun jammed in the mud, crud and sand. The thompson was the most complained about.... These guys had a constant battle to keep thing clean, lubed and working, likely in ways we can barely imagine. They also lived in a puddle of petroleum products literally, from the DDT to the cosomoline, to the gas for cig lighters to gun oil and grease.... it is amazing everyone was not dead with cancer by 1955. 30 years latter I can still smell in my mind GI tents and blankets that were 40 years old when I was a kid...
Lots of folks loved the MI carbine and the thompson, the M1 Garand while a magnificent rifle was a lot of gun and not "handy". Anyone who could trade away likely did. I was surprised by how many folks found a way to have an extra this or that ... no always a weapon but you name it... folks got by, found extra and made do. Call it the American can - do spirit and I admire and am inspired by it to this day.
Few of the WWII folks I knew had formal / range use of the 1911 -- also all were on the job trained and liked it. Many reported great shots with it at decent ranges, plugging rats or cans...
Vietnam --
No one seemed happy with their weapons.
1911 -- rattle trap that was hard to qualify with -- I am guessing single hand 25 yard ranges and so on... I have to say love old pistols... hate their sights... ransom rest an old 1911 some time... it might surprise you but don't expect close to that with the sights they have on them..
M16 -- all the usual complaints everyone has seen in print 1000 times...
M14 -- too heavy, don't shoot it full auto, too little ammo / ammo too heavy.
Every vietnam vet said they wanted a handgun, and many reported a wide variety of official and unofficial sourced guns, for on base, in town use. No one wanted to visibly carry a handgun lest they be singled out for sniper or other attention. A few mentioned fearing some elements of their own countrymen over there.
3 folks i know mentioned the BHP as being "the gun" to have, none did though and none even saw one in country, at most some had commercial revolvers the rest went without, finding a 1911 if not authorized one seemed an impossibility which was not the impression I got form all the WWII family.
Hope that sheds a little light, makes me sad for the face the tellers of these stores have passed on. Keep your family close folks, time passes and we don't even know it sometimes until it's too late.