.45 in combat
- Thread starter rmocarsky
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bamaranger
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York and the M1911
The Sgt York MOH action has always held a special interest for me. It indeed is an example of what some in this "nation of rifleman" can do and accomplish in combat. And of course, York used a M19ll as well in his action.
That aside, a recently published book on the York MOH fight claims to have found the exact location of the episode. Strong words I agree, for pinpointing a location in the shell strewn trench warfare landscape in France 100 yrs or so later would seem impossible. However, this text, written by a Col Douglas Mastriano, "Alvin York, Hero of the Argonne" gathers some compelling evidence that is hard to not consider. I will not expand on that too much for brevity's sake, but terrain and forensic analysis of spent cases, slugs, and importantly, insignia and an ID disk from a German soldier in the enemy MG section involved have made me a believer. I'd like to see the site, but France is a long way from 'Bama. I made the concession to visit York's grave, just N. in TN about 4 hrs.
Contrary to Hollywoods depiction of the the York fight, there were at least two .45's in action that day, and there were more than 6 pistol rounds fired. The other M1911 belonged to a another US Pvt who, according to Mastriano, blazed away as did York during the attack by a German squad with bayonets. Twenty four .45 acp cases were recovered from that firing position, 9 from one handgun, 15 from another. It is thought that York must have changed magazines. Twenty four handgun rounds, 6 dead enemy soldiers. German reports stated that at least 12 soldiers led by a Lt. began the attack, with over half falling in action.
Just for grins, I'll add that York is believed to have fired at least 46 rounds of rifle ammo in his flanking action.
The Sgt York MOH action has always held a special interest for me. It indeed is an example of what some in this "nation of rifleman" can do and accomplish in combat. And of course, York used a M19ll as well in his action.
That aside, a recently published book on the York MOH fight claims to have found the exact location of the episode. Strong words I agree, for pinpointing a location in the shell strewn trench warfare landscape in France 100 yrs or so later would seem impossible. However, this text, written by a Col Douglas Mastriano, "Alvin York, Hero of the Argonne" gathers some compelling evidence that is hard to not consider. I will not expand on that too much for brevity's sake, but terrain and forensic analysis of spent cases, slugs, and importantly, insignia and an ID disk from a German soldier in the enemy MG section involved have made me a believer. I'd like to see the site, but France is a long way from 'Bama. I made the concession to visit York's grave, just N. in TN about 4 hrs.
Contrary to Hollywoods depiction of the the York fight, there were at least two .45's in action that day, and there were more than 6 pistol rounds fired. The other M1911 belonged to a another US Pvt who, according to Mastriano, blazed away as did York during the attack by a German squad with bayonets. Twenty four .45 acp cases were recovered from that firing position, 9 from one handgun, 15 from another. It is thought that York must have changed magazines. Twenty four handgun rounds, 6 dead enemy soldiers. German reports stated that at least 12 soldiers led by a Lt. began the attack, with over half falling in action.
Just for grins, I'll add that York is believed to have fired at least 46 rounds of rifle ammo in his flanking action.
And so did generations of "non-gun" people, and gun people. In the United States, for well over half a century there was essentially, only ONE .45 automatic. Colt made them and called them Government Models. People just called them the .45 auto.
Yes, there actually were a small number of other pistols, available in .45acp, Llama, Star, and some others but they were little known (not well liked) and few in number. To the vast majority of people when someone said .45auto they only meant one thing, the Colt, or its military version.
I can tell you from my own military service that the only time M1911A1 was used was on certain paperwork. In conversation it was ALWAYS just called "the 45".
Veterans are the ultimate authority on their personal military experiences. Beyond that, they may, or may not know what they are talking about. Veterans are no more immune to bull and barracks rumors than anyone else.
had one vet (Korea War era) seriously tell me the way to make an M1 carbine full auto was to "file the shear pin". A guy telling you how the .45 worked in combat might have actually been there and done it. Another one might have spent his entire military career in a supply room in Oklahoma.
The military (and I'm pretty sure all of them do it) ALWAYS …"enhances" the effectiveness of its weapons to recruits. They want recruits to have confidence in their weapons, so they tell them how great they are. And this gets built on, and built on, until it finally reaches legendary (and often unbelievable) levels. By the time troops get to combat and find out the real world limits and effectiveness of their arms, the training cadre and their stories are far behind them.
American tankers got told during training in the states about how the Sherman tank was the best tank in the world. When they got overseas and faced German armor, they found that wasn't entirely true.
Some of us have personal memories of how we were told how great the M16 and its round were. Actual field experience proved those tales to be ...somewhat less than fully accurate...
The story of the 1911 during WWI was that it could shoot through a charging horse, bringing down the horse and killing the rider with a single bullet as well. I guess it could have happened. Bullets do all kinds of strange things once they start hitting stuff.
I tend to doubt it though. Horses are huge animals and fairly tough. Maybe a touch of exaggeration there.
I tend to doubt it though. Horses are huge animals and fairly tough. Maybe a touch of exaggeration there.
Here's an article about a Navy petty officer in Vietnam.
I shot rifle matches with him after he got back to the USA. Later got commissioned as an ensign and was later the OIC of the USN rifle team. Retired as a commander.
https://ar-ar.facebook.com/HombresO...chment-from-us-navy-seal-tea/160598900785902/
I shot rifle matches with him after he got back to the USA. Later got commissioned as an ensign and was later the OIC of the USN rifle team. Retired as a commander.
https://ar-ar.facebook.com/HombresO...chment-from-us-navy-seal-tea/160598900785902/
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the first time I fired a .45 auto I feel in love with it and fired expert with it at 1000 inches off hand, i never fired it at any one. i had no trouble with the m-16 as a hunter before my paid government vacation, I knew you had to clean any firearm if you wanted it to work and knew the little comic book about the m-16 being better than sliced bread was BS.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Hey, in the pilot for The Lone Ranger television series back in the early 1950s (the pilot was in 1949), the Lone Ranger saved Silver from a rampaging buffalo with a single shot from his Colt 45 (revolver). If a single shot will kill a buffalo, it should do for a horse.
Fast forward to 25:35: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbzSdY2xNf8
Fast forward to 25:35: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbzSdY2xNf8
Mr Fink was one of my customers. He was 92 year-old when I last saw him 4 years ago. He was a tanker during WWII in Europe. He told me he didn't like the 45. They never touched the grease gun and Tommy gun in the tank either. His shoulder holster had a p38 that he found somewhere. For the 9mm ammo needed, he just picked them up from the dead Germans whenever he had a chance. He wasn't supposed to do that but nobody had cared.
He didn't say whether he shot anyone.
BTW he had never heard of tanker Garand.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
He didn't say whether he shot anyone.
BTW he had never heard of tanker Garand.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
I would certainly favor the .45 "Long" Colt for SD too
...in the movie FURY, Brad Pitt (Wardaddy) carried an S&W 1917 in .45 ACP in a shoulder rig. I wonder how common this actually was other than movie stuff.Pitt's personal shoulder arm, in the movie, Was a STG 44....in reality, he would have had some difficulty in finding ammo for it if he shot it much.
I’ve never heard of ranges being listed in inches. 1000 inches would be like 25 yards, correct?
Is it or was it common in some circles to delineate in this way?.
You have peaked my curiosity.
As to the efficacy of the round it comes down, like it always does, to shot placement and or mindset of the target.
There are documented instances of MANY .45 slugs in a single bad guy not putting them down and there are many instances of a single or double dropping somebody DRT. The two that come readily to mind are the cop with the G21 that emptied all his ammo into an assailant and he didn’t stop fighting until a head shot I believe. The other end of the spectrum was the GA gun store robbery a couple years back that was caught on video where the clerk/owner drew and put a couple quick shots from a 1911 into one of the robbers and it was like he used a remote control and hit the guys off button.
One of those guys swears by the .45 one swears at it. It’s all about perspective.
Is it or was it common in some circles to delineate in this way?.
You have peaked my curiosity.
As to the efficacy of the round it comes down, like it always does, to shot placement and or mindset of the target.
There are documented instances of MANY .45 slugs in a single bad guy not putting them down and there are many instances of a single or double dropping somebody DRT. The two that come readily to mind are the cop with the G21 that emptied all his ammo into an assailant and he didn’t stop fighting until a head shot I believe. The other end of the spectrum was the GA gun store robbery a couple years back that was caught on video where the clerk/owner drew and put a couple quick shots from a 1911 into one of the robbers and it was like he used a remote control and hit the guys off button.
One of those guys swears by the .45 one swears at it. It’s all about perspective.
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BTW, I grew up as a kid with our Greatest Generation, My Dad, Uncles, Dad's friends, etc. Most were WWII vets. Army, Navy, Marines and Merchant Seaman. I cannot remember any of them willingly discuss there combat experience....they seemed to kind of just change the subject when pressed....As a kid I had a friend up the street who's dad was seriously wounded as a member of an M4 tank crew in France. I never knew it till his obit a long time after.
The father of another friend was shot through both legs on Omaha Beach. He always walked with a slight limp in his older days. Again, never knew it till he passed. I was in a barber's shop a few years ago. One of my Dad's friends came in and I knew he was there on Utah beach, D-Day and I asked him about it. He said, with a sly grin "yeah, and I still hates those (expletive) Germans" and the he changed the subject. Even though I was ahead of him, out of respect, I let him go ahead of me and he ended up paying for my hair cut
This was my experience but that obviously doesn't mean every vet won't discuss his service. Some do and I respect that choice also. Everyone's different. God Bless them all.
The father of another friend was shot through both legs on Omaha Beach. He always walked with a slight limp in his older days. Again, never knew it till he passed. I was in a barber's shop a few years ago. One of my Dad's friends came in and I knew he was there on Utah beach, D-Day and I asked him about it. He said, with a sly grin "yeah, and I still hates those (expletive) Germans" and the he changed the subject. Even though I was ahead of him, out of respect, I let him go ahead of me and he ended up paying for my hair cut
This was my experience but that obviously doesn't mean every vet won't discuss his service. Some do and I respect that choice also. Everyone's different. God Bless them all.
For a lot of the WWII vets, not talking about the details of their experiences was a cultural thing. You just didn't talk about such things with people who weren't there, and seldom with people who were.
Sometimes it was just to avoid revisiting those memories, but another part was that it was just something not talked about. These are the guys who also wouldn't seek any kind of "shrink" for counseling, no matter how much they might need it. They might see the Padre, (if it wasn't a kid) they might seek other vets, and often they would seek a bottle, but they wouldn't talk to any kind of "shrink".
One of my neighbors when I was growing up was like that, he'd say, yeah I was there, and about nothing else. I found out he had been in the 101st Airborne, was part of the group that dropped on St Mere-Eglise on D-Day, did something in Operation Market Garden, and was at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. Wife said when the movie "The Longest Day" came on TV he watched about half of it and went to bed. Had nightmares for two weeks afterward. He passed before Saving Private Ryan came but the stories about how many vets were so disturbed by what that movie brought back to them are quite true.
As to the .45 in combat, I think veteran's opinions are pretty much the same about all the weapons they had, if they worked they swore by them and if they didn't they swore at them.
Now, there's no relic we can point to with the words written but I'm sure there was some Triari Decurion telling his maniple how the Gladius Iberius was too short ranged and they needed Spatha's for real reach....
Same thing with the .45 or anything else, some are fans, some aren't.
Sometimes it was just to avoid revisiting those memories, but another part was that it was just something not talked about. These are the guys who also wouldn't seek any kind of "shrink" for counseling, no matter how much they might need it. They might see the Padre, (if it wasn't a kid) they might seek other vets, and often they would seek a bottle, but they wouldn't talk to any kind of "shrink".
One of my neighbors when I was growing up was like that, he'd say, yeah I was there, and about nothing else. I found out he had been in the 101st Airborne, was part of the group that dropped on St Mere-Eglise on D-Day, did something in Operation Market Garden, and was at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. Wife said when the movie "The Longest Day" came on TV he watched about half of it and went to bed. Had nightmares for two weeks afterward. He passed before Saving Private Ryan came but the stories about how many vets were so disturbed by what that movie brought back to them are quite true.
As to the .45 in combat, I think veteran's opinions are pretty much the same about all the weapons they had, if they worked they swore by them and if they didn't they swore at them.
Now, there's no relic we can point to with the words written but I'm sure there was some Triari Decurion telling his maniple how the Gladius Iberius was too short ranged and they needed Spatha's for real reach....
Same thing with the .45 or anything else, some are fans, some aren't.
I knew two vets that didn't like the 45 auto, because it was heavy and they already had to carry a lot of stuff. The also talked about how inaccurate they were, but also said, they believe the guns were wore out.
One of them was wounded in combat, also said he didn't want to carry a 45 auto, because if you had one, someone was always wanting you to go down into one those holes in the ground with it, as he called them. He also carried the M16 and kept a towel over the action to keep the gun in the best shape he could so hopefully it would work when he needed it. His also said his favorite weapon was a grenade launcher, which apparently, he always carried. He was flown out of the bush, after taking a round in the arm, which ruined his M16, he was on point at the time, and ran headlong into a VC on a trail.
One of them was wounded in combat, also said he didn't want to carry a 45 auto, because if you had one, someone was always wanting you to go down into one those holes in the ground with it, as he called them. He also carried the M16 and kept a towel over the action to keep the gun in the best shape he could so hopefully it would work when he needed it. His also said his favorite weapon was a grenade launcher, which apparently, he always carried. He was flown out of the bush, after taking a round in the arm, which ruined his M16, he was on point at the time, and ran headlong into a VC on a trail.
Yeah, that was unofficial jargon that was around even in the 80's and early 00's. The 1000-inch qual was referred to as either the pistol qual range or the reduced rifle course. The reduced rifle course had one target with various sized silhouettes meant to be reflective of 50m (or 75m?) to 300m.