.45 GAP vs .45 ACP

carguychris said:
This discussion HAS got me wondering if S&W moon clips will fit well enough for the GAP cartridge to be fired in their .45 ACP revolvers and the Governor. (This would not work without moons because the chambers are cut to .45 ACP or .410 shotshell length, so the GAP cartridges would fall into the cylinder and fail to ignite.)
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Folks with a S&W 625s fire .45 ACP and .45 GAP -- both "rimless" cartridges -- using the same moon clips.

The 625 will also shoot the rimmed .45 Auto Rim cartridge without moon clips. (A number of ammo makers, including Corbon, still load that round, and Starline offers the brass.)

Some 625 shooters say they can also shoot .45 ACP without moon clips, and that the cases will drop out with a shake, others say they sometimes have to poke the cases out with a dowel, etc. -- but both fire properly. (I don't know how the .45 GAP would behave if you weren't using moon clips.)

The older S&W 25 would shoot .45 ACP with moon clips and the 45 Long Colt rounds without -- as the .45 LC headspaced on the rim. I'd expect that model to run .45 GAP with moon clips, too.
 
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Walt Sherrill said:
In revolvers, the chambers aren't cut to case length -- with most revolvers, rounds headspace off the rim.

If the round being used doesn't have the typical revolver-RIMMED case, moon clips are required. The Model 25 I once owned used moon clips for .45 ACP and didn't need them for .45 Long Colt rounds.
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All S&W .45 ACP revolvers I've seen have the chambers cut to .45 ACP length, allowing them to be fired without moon clips, although the fired cases have to be picked or punched out of the chambers with a tool. I've fired several cylinders through a M1917 without moons and used the eraser end of a #2 pencil for unloading. :)

Firing .45 ACP out of their .45 Colt or .410 shotshell revolvers is another matter. Those DO absolutely require moon clips.
 
Any 45 acp revolver should be able to fire 45 acp ammo from it without use of a moon clip. They were built with that in mind. Colt and S&W were asked by the military for revolvers that could do that during WWI when it was clear that that not enough 1911s were being produced to meet the needs of the Army. Moon clips (originally half moon clips IIRC) made loading and ejecting rounds easier and faster.

I don't believe that the 45 GAP can be shot from a wheelgun without moon clips.

tipoc
 
For folks who roll their own, it's a non-issue.
I don't handload, but haven't had many problems finding ammo.

For self-defense ammo, it would be easier to find a larger variety of .45 ACP than .45 GAP, but I don't really shoot all that much SD-type ammo. If I change brands I'll shoot a box or two to convince myself that what I'm using works in the gun, but thereafter will only keep a box or two of that on hand, and some in the gun...
In other words, if you plan a bit, it's not a big deal...
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I agree with this. If you plan ahead the ammo is available.

It's an internet thing that you need only guns that have "easily found ammo". Ammo that could be found "anywhere on earth that I might need it". Internationally 45 acp really ain't all that common.

When was the last time you were in Tokyo, Sevilla, or Dakar and walked into a store and asked for 200 rounds of 9mm ammo? Is that something you normally do while traveling? Liam Neason does it in the movies when he's chasing his daughter, but other than that.

tipoc
 
tipoc said:
Any 45 acp revolver should be able to fire 45 acp ammo from it without use of a moon clip. They were built with that in mind. Colt and S&W were asked by the military for revolvers that could do that during WWI...
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I'm delving into historical minutia here, but IIRC early Colt M1917 revolvers had the cylinders bored straight through and thus couldn't fire .45 ACP without moon clips. This was fixed later in the production run.

AFAIK all factory S&W .45 ACP revolvers have chambers cut at the correct length for .45 ACP.
Walt Sherrill said:
(I don't know how the .45 GAP would behave if you weren't using moon clips.)
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I assume the same as .40 S&W in a Model 610 – there would be an 60%-100% failure-to-fire rate.
 
carguychris said:
All S&W .45 ACP revolvers I've seen have the chambers cut to .45 ACP length, allowing them to be fired without moon clips, although the fired cases have to be picked or punched out of the chambers with a tool. I've fired several cylinders through a M1917 without moons and used the eraser end of a #2 pencil for unloading.
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I think you're right about the Model 625 (and Model 1917) -- but the older, similar S&W Model 25 also shoots the rimmed .45 LC (aka .45 Colt) which is longer than both the .45 Auto Rim and .45 ACP rounds. Others also claim to fire the .45 ACP out of the 625 without moon clips.

S&W also made a Model 625 JM (for Jerry Miculek) that copied the Model 25; it shot .45 ACP with moon clips or .45 Colt without.

I suspect the 25 and 625 JM have different cylinder designs than the 625 and 1917. Somebody here probably knows for sure.
 
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I'm delving into historical minutia here, but IIRC early Colt M1917 revolvers had the cylinders bored straight through and thus couldn't fire .45 ACP without moon clips. This was fixed later in the production run.
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This is correct.

The Army designated two revolvers as the M1917.

Colt had extensive experience building da revolvers in 45 caliber rounds prior to WWI for both 45 Colt rounds and 455 Webley, both revolver rounds. When the call came out for more revolvers in 45 acp they offered up the robust New Service. This was already being built for the British for the war in 455 Webley and already chambered in 45 Colt. The New Service could not fire, initially, 45 acp with the use of moon clips. As noted that changed later, specifically at the military's request. Much more could be said about these but it's far off topic.

The S&W M1917 was a version of the 44 Hand Ejector. S&W developed the half and full moon clips. These guns could fire 45 acp without the clip.

The 45 Auto Rim round was developed in about 1920 for use in these revolvers without the clip.

One could fit the GAP with moon clips but I'm wondering why? We already have several good choices in 45 ammo for wheelguns. (Let me mention here that most fired rounds of 45acp from a revolver shot without moon clips can either be shaken out and drop free or can be pulled out with a finger nail.)

Most of this is off topic.

There is no mystery about Glock developing the 45 GAP. They explained it at the time. No mystery as to why it did not become more popular...it lost out in law enforcement to the 40 S&W. While a good round it could not unseat either the 45 acp, 40 S&W or the 9mm in commercial sales either.

tipoc
 
At one time once fired .45 gap was plentiful and cheap....I'm talking same price as once fired 9mm brass. Just looked and that's not the case anymore.

Unless this changes in the near future, I'd have no reason to search out a gap.
 
Well at this point of the morning my research skills are inebriated...
yet, brain still moderately functioning, and it asks...
"Can someone compare the aforementioned .45 GAP to .45 Super?"

Then after reading it, everyone will wonder why .45 Super hasn't eclipsed .45acp yet,
and is barely leading .45 GAP
 
Big Shrek said:
Then after reading it, everyone will wonder why .45 Super hasn't eclipsed .45acp yet,
and is barely leading .45 GAP
cougar gt-e said:
45super is a good round, but people don't enjoy the recoil.
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+1, the same reason that 10mm Auto has never really taken off despite decades of grousing about the lack of an automatic pistol cartridge that could compete with .357 Magnum.

There's also the simple fact that .45 ACP works in a proverbial bazillion legacy guns.
 
One could select 10mm loads that are not nuclear and produce recoil comparable to 45 GAP & 45 acp +P (power factor PF for comparison).

Glock 38:
Winchester 230 Ranger T @ 837 fps/ 358# KE / PF 193
Speer Gold Dot 200 @ 949 fps / 400# KE / PF 190
Speer Gold Dot 185 @ 1,062 fps / 463# KE / PF 196

Glock 30SF
Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 811 fps / 336# KE / PF 187
Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 903 fps /417# KE / PF 208
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,008 fps / 418# KE / PF 186

Glock 29 SF
Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,231 fps / 505# KE / PF 185
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,256 fps / 543# KE / PF 195
Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,083 fps / 456# KE / PF 190

But Nnn...Ooo... they want "real" :rolleyes: 10mm - like a 180 gr. @ 1,300 fps (PF 234 :eek:)
 
There are more modern autos available. The 1911 is still completely alive, but the modern ones are easier to shoot. And reliable beyond many 1911s. The military got tired of a finicky gun. I am interested in what the next sidearm will be in the US military. .45ACP all day, its the flavor of all time.
 
Modern ones are easier to shoot? I have yet to handle a pistol that is easier to shoot well than even a mill-run 1911.
 
I have yet to handle a pistol that is easier to shoot well than even a mill-run 1911.
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Maybe you haven't shot or handled enough OTHER .45s? (That is not meant to denigrate the 1911.)

I wouldn't say that other .45s are EASIER to shoot as well as a 1911 but a number seem JUST AS EASY.

I've found the SIG P220, Witness ELITE/MATCH guns, CZ-97B, the XDm Competition, and the Glock 37/38 (.45 GAP) all quite easy to shoot well. I also had an ASAI OnePro that was very impressive... but foolishly traded it away.
 
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I own and handload for several "off-beat" cartridges; 10mm, .41 Mag and .45LC...oh yeah, .45 Super as well. Maybe one or two others as well.

Here's the difference, from my perspective--the 10mm, the .41 Mag and the .45LC/.45 Super are range toys. My SD guns are 9mm/.45acp, and I can crank out many practice rounds easily and cheaply.

As a handloader, i pick up brass whenever possible. I pick up .45LC once a month (if I'm lucky), 10mm once or twice a year, and .41Mag/.45 Super...never. This also (to some degree) dictates how much I shoot these chamberings...45LC, occasionally, 10mm once in a while, .41 Mag/.45 Super, very rarely. And to be honest, my 10mm, .41 Mag/.45 Super may be going up for sale one day soon.

As far as .45GAP, I think I have picked up one case, once upon a time, when picking up .45acp cases. Like an undersized fish, I threw it back. :)

I owned a Kahr PM45 for a while. Pretty small for a .45acp--about the size of my PM9. As a matter of fact, the friend I sold it to (about five years ago) recently offered me the PM and some money for an AR I have for sale, and I may take him up on it. It's a nice option, especially since I own multiple .45acp pistols and load many .45acp rounds.

As several have said, the GAP round is a bit too "eclectic" for my tastes.

I think what has been unstated in this thread so far, is that (to my understanding) the .45GAP round is a 200 grain loaded to +p specs, to "duplicate" the 230 gr .45 acp round.

Sound like the .357 Sig? Another one-trick pony, made to "duplicate" the 125 gr .357 Mag round...

Both rounds seem to have painted themselves into a very small corner. If that corner fits your needs, great.

If not, you may have a hard time justifying the purchase of either one. That is where I am.

And that may explain the commercial success (or lack thereof) of both cartridges...
 
"The military got tired of a finicky gun."

The only thing "finicky" about the 1911/1911A1 was the infinite variety of and quality of clones, ranging from top quality to junk, and ammo, from GI FMJ to plain weird garbage.

The Model 1911 and 1911A1 pistols with GI ammunition were, and are, as reliable as any auto pistol ever made. Millions were literally taken out of the box and fired for the first time out of the factory at an enemy, and they worked. One wishes that all the new copies and clones, made God knows where by Heaven knows whom, from whatever metal happened to be on the junk pile, worked as well.

Jim
 
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