44 vs 454
- Thread starter cfr1000
- Start date
Unshouldering a rifle after standing, cocking it and bringing it up and getting a good sight picture is mighty hard to do in a situation like that, especially when an alaskan grizzly is nearing. I have been taught that most bears do a false charge, and I guess I am lucky that was all it was. A good part about it though is it gives me a good reason to stop by the gun store 
I do have a old 45-70 I used to hunt with before I got the 308, I will probably start taking it out again, I loved hunting with the irons.
I do have a old 45-70 I used to hunt with before I got the 308, I will probably start taking it out again, I loved hunting with the irons.kodiakbeer
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Where do you live?
Para Cassatt
New member
If you handload I would say 45Colt but you're limited to single actions for stout loads. If you don't handload I would say go for the 44 mag.
Not really. My Redhawk should handle anything a Blackhawk would in .45 Colt.
Just to help clarify a few terms (in my mind, anyway).
"Unsling" would mean starting to get a rifle into action that has been hanging on your back or off your shoulder.
"Shoulder" would be to bring the rifle into firing position.
"Unshoulder" would mean bringing a rifle down from the firing position.
I had a bit of trouble reading the OP and trying to figure out why he was unshouldering the rifle with the bear standing so close. I quickly decided it was all semantics and went on.
Of course the military "shoulder arms" I suppose is drill talk for leaning the rifle over your shoulder in nothing like a firing position.
That said, 1 shot from the .308 would trump 1 shot from any handgun I'd care to shoot.
A friend of mine and I were talking about this scenario just the other day. I was saying that if confronted with a grizzly I would probably like to have one of the 500 S&Ws. He came back with the point that even a 30-30 would be more powerful than a big bore handgun. Not really an issue for me down here in FL and I'm not a hunter so outside of my dreams it is highly unlikely that I'll ever be in that situation.
OTOH, in my younger days, being a follower of the gospel of Elmer Keith, I loaded many a round of 44mag with his 429421 cast bullet and 17.5 grains,IIRC, of 2400. I shot the 44 so much that I have permanent damage in my right elbow from recoil. If someone is going to get something like a 454 doing a lot of shooting is a prerequisite to efficient handling in a dangerous situation. I guess that is a given though.
OTOH, in my younger days, being a follower of the gospel of Elmer Keith, I loaded many a round of 44mag with his 429421 cast bullet and 17.5 grains,IIRC, of 2400. I shot the 44 so much that I have permanent damage in my right elbow from recoil. If someone is going to get something like a 454 doing a lot of shooting is a prerequisite to efficient handling in a dangerous situation. I guess that is a given though.
CarbineCaleb
New member
I'd like one of these....loaded with some of that:
...it's not so awful to carry, and recoil will be manageable for followups due to the special barrel design. The bullets will penetrate bear skull if asked to.
- (S&W 629 V-Comp .44 Magnum with extra meaty 4-inch barrel and special porting extension to reduce muzzle flip)
- (Double Tap 320gr hardcast @ 1300fps)
...it's not so awful to carry, and recoil will be manageable for followups due to the special barrel design. The bullets will penetrate bear skull if asked to.
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Action_Can_Do
New member
JimmyDAO
If your friend thinks that the 30-30 is anywhere near as powerful as a 500 S&W, he is gravely mistaken.
30-30 170gr bullet at 2200 fps
500 magnum 440gr bullet at 1700 fps
The 500 S&W hits harder and penetrates much deeper. Quite a few people have trouble understanding that modern super magnum handguns are quite a bit more powerful than medium powered rifles.
If your friend thinks that the 30-30 is anywhere near as powerful as a 500 S&W, he is gravely mistaken.
30-30 170gr bullet at 2200 fps
500 magnum 440gr bullet at 1700 fps
The 500 S&W hits harder and penetrates much deeper. Quite a few people have trouble understanding that modern super magnum handguns are quite a bit more powerful than medium powered rifles.
A little bigger, a little faster, and you're almost talking about one of the old black powder express cartridges. (.470 nitro is a 500 grain at about 2100. .500 BPE is 440 at 1900)
Would that beat a .35 Whelen with a 250 grain bullet at 2,500? I don't think so, but the point is moot, imo.
There are so many reasons not to carry a handgun and carry an adequate rifle instead, the least of those reasons is that most people would be far more likely to land a killing shot with a rifle than a pistol.
Still, I guess I wouldn't feel that you are undergunned with that behemoth of a round.
kodiakbeer
Moderator
I'd still take the .30/30, if those were the only choices I had. In the worst case scenario you're going to have to hit the bear on the tip of his nose to stop him. I'd take a long arm over a handgun for any kind of serious altercation with animals, or people for that matter.
The best choice is the rifle you're hunting with, or if you're not hunting then a shotgun or .45/70 lever gun.
Action_Can_Do
New member
Briandg
The 500 S&W can't match the 35 Whelen in muzzle energy but it still beats it in penetration.
It all comes down to threat analysis. If you're in an area where a bear attack is possible but unlikely, I would carry a light 454 casull. It will kill a grizzly and not be the huge burden that a rifle or shotgun would be. If you're in an area where the chance of being attacked is pretty high, why are you there? In that case, I would want my 458 Lott and a friend also equipped with a big rifle.
The 500 S&W can't match the 35 Whelen in muzzle energy but it still beats it in penetration.
It all comes down to threat analysis. If you're in an area where a bear attack is possible but unlikely, I would carry a light 454 casull. It will kill a grizzly and not be the huge burden that a rifle or shotgun would be. If you're in an area where the chance of being attacked is pretty high, why are you there? In that case, I would want my 458 Lott and a friend also equipped with a big rifle.
pythagorean
Moderator
Let's say, rifles aside. Why? Because when we are hiking or walking about in mother nature to fish or sight see or camp or hunt caribou or deer we are not intending to shoot a bear.
So the sidearm comes back into the picture. It is a side arm--not a primary hunting-for-meat instrument when we are out doing the ordinary thing.
You decide to go fishing for rainbow trout under a waterfall in the Sierra Nevadas and along the way you stumble across a bear.....No rifle this time because you are fishing!
So what's on your hip or under your armpit for this occasion?
SW 29-2.
So the sidearm comes back into the picture. It is a side arm--not a primary hunting-for-meat instrument when we are out doing the ordinary thing.
You decide to go fishing for rainbow trout under a waterfall in the Sierra Nevadas and along the way you stumble across a bear.....No rifle this time because you are fishing!
So what's on your hip or under your armpit for this occasion?
SW 29-2.
I'm all for threat analysis. That's why I would still carry a .357 and bear gas, even in grizzly country, rather than a rifle or nothing.
Face it. I'm not going to haul a .454 anywhere, but I will carry my colt. I'm also not carrying a rifle. but, on the very slim chance that a threat materializes, I'll take an obviously marginal weapon, and count on my luck improving.
I feel the same way out in public. I don't worry too much about being attacked in a chinese restaurant, but I do worry about road ragers. So, the pistol goes in the cars, but not necessarily into public. If I lived elsewhere, I'd obviously re-analyze my threats and my responses.
but seriously, I'm not sure that the 500 will outpenetrate the whelen.
whelen has an sd of 279 2500 fps, the
magnum has an sd of 251 at 1700.
I don't know if the added weight will give deeper penetration or not, but all things considered, I still think they can both give a lethal wound.
That magnum is practically identical to the old 50-70-450 round that would have been used on buffalo.
Face it. I'm not going to haul a .454 anywhere, but I will carry my colt. I'm also not carrying a rifle. but, on the very slim chance that a threat materializes, I'll take an obviously marginal weapon, and count on my luck improving.
I feel the same way out in public. I don't worry too much about being attacked in a chinese restaurant, but I do worry about road ragers. So, the pistol goes in the cars, but not necessarily into public. If I lived elsewhere, I'd obviously re-analyze my threats and my responses.
but seriously, I'm not sure that the 500 will outpenetrate the whelen.
whelen has an sd of 279 2500 fps, the
magnum has an sd of 251 at 1700.
I don't know if the added weight will give deeper penetration or not, but all things considered, I still think they can both give a lethal wound.
That magnum is practically identical to the old 50-70-450 round that would have been used on buffalo.
kodiakbeer
Moderator
I carry a can of pepper spray around just to fish in the streams below my house. It's loaded with grizzlies when the salmon are in - I mean dozens of them. I just stay away from brushy areas and don't worry about it.
When I do go out where there's brush, such as berry picking with my wife, I carry a shotgun - a cheap Baikal coach gun. She usually carries a Marlin Guide Gun.
I've got a .45 Ruger Bisley (with the full power 335 grain loads) that I carry at times just because my wife insists on having a firearm close for any outdoor activity, but honestly I only do it to please her, and only if we're going somewhere bear problems are unlikely. I still plan on using the pepper spray first because I think it's more likely to stop a bear. If we're going into brush, I'm bringing a long gun and pepper. Always...
When I do go out where there's brush, such as berry picking with my wife, I carry a shotgun - a cheap Baikal coach gun. She usually carries a Marlin Guide Gun.
I've got a .45 Ruger Bisley (with the full power 335 grain loads) that I carry at times just because my wife insists on having a firearm close for any outdoor activity, but honestly I only do it to please her, and only if we're going somewhere bear problems are unlikely. I still plan on using the pepper spray first because I think it's more likely to stop a bear. If we're going into brush, I'm bringing a long gun and pepper. Always...