.44 Magnum -P hollow point ammunition

To 'Sevens' - I was using the term -P colloquially, but I don't see why my concept couldn't be adopted and marketed as such. I disagree with your statement that it 'shouldn't exist'. I think it should exist, for reasons already stated. To reiterate: I would like a commercially available defense round that is between .44 Special and .44 Magnum in terms of muzzle energy but loaded in a .44 Magnum case to gain accuracy and reduce casing pressure (not a .44 Special +P). Also, your list of +P cartridges which have been standardized by SAAMI is incomplete; anyway, to say that one, whether it be an individual or a manufacturer, can't or shouldn't use the terms +P or -P simply to indicate more or less pressure, or that because it's not on your incomplete list of SAAMI +P's, that it doesn't and shouldn't exist is ridiculous. What I'm saying has nothing to do with lame marketing ploys, which I agree are simply that. I think there are several good reasons why your point, or lack thereof, is lost on your intended audience.
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Naaa, I just seem to have trouble expressing what I mean in a way that's understood. I certainly do -not- mean (nor did I ever!) that what you are looking for, asking for, and wishing for should not exist. For sure, I actually do see fine reasons for wanting exactly what you're looking for, and MANY others do as well, and it is one of the finest benefits of handloading.

So I'll express it again in hopes that you see my intention: It's not that the product you desire shouldn't exist -- I am saying that when one big headed boutique ammo manufacturer elects to take a standardized chambering... then alter it... and THEN tack on a +P (as if that little +P is to any known standard...?), THAT method should not exist. In my opinion. It's a disservice.

What I mean is that simply giving it a name a tossing it out there steps outside the (almost universally agreed upon) guidelines. Buffalo Bore has done it in the past, IIRC, they've stamped it on some .380 Auto ammo.

But it doesn't exist, at least, in the industry as we've all pretty much agreed to accept it.

The ammo you specifically seek? Well, it has been done, and is done even right now. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't happen to be in .44 Magnum. But it exists in a litany of different "low recoil" loads in other popular chamberings. But... and here's the fun stuff: -NOBODY- stamps "-p" on it. Which is the smart move, since .38 Special-P doesn't exist as a real caliber on the SAAMI standard. Instead, they market it as what it is: .38 Special. (or whichever caliber... like the 85gr Hydra-Shock "low recoil" load in .327 Federal)

If the product you specifically are looking for were factory loaded and offered right now, it would be called a .44 Magnum product. It needn't run at full SAAMI-spec max pressure to be a .44 Magnum, it merely can't exceed that max pressure. If they make a product that exceeds that max pressure, it ceases to be a .44 Magnum and adding a little +P to it doesn't make it right.

As for what might be "missing" off the list of three "+p" cartridges I listed, I'll admit that I haven't checked with SAAMI recently. I've certainly heard arguments that one of the missing you may be referring to is a heavy .45 Colt load (commonly referred to as a Ruger/Freedom/T-C load) or perhaps the .38 Super+P, which notably isn't any higher in pressure or performance than the SAAMI standardized .38 Super already is... it's that some ammo companies have elected to stamp it on there because they are further concerned that it ends up in the (dimensionally identical) .38 Automatic platform.

I'll close with the same line I put in my earlier post.
This was written respectfully, and to the subject. NOT personally, as any manner of an insult. No matter how "RIDICULOUS" it appeared you when you read it.
 
Overthinking is better than under-thinking, in my opinion. Until Hornady or someone else with a similar idea to the Critical Defense line gets on board with my idea, I'll stick with the 165 grain .44 Special Critical Defense or check out the 200 grain .44 Special Speer Gold Dots mentioned (thanks) and hope that the longer barrel gets it up to about 1,000 or 1,100 fps and that my accuracy is good enough.
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Sometimes "over-thinking' tho makes us concerned about problems that don't exist. Factory ammo loaded to .44 special velocities are loaded with a projectile that has good terminal performance at those velocities. Hoping to get a hundred FPS more is not going to help any at all and may in fact be detrimental to overall terminal performance as in over-penetration and pass thrus, or over-expansion and limited penetration. The reason no one has not gotten "on-board" with your thinking is because it is over-thinking. .44 Special factory loads are very good and you are not under-armed using them in your revolver just cause they aren't marked "magnum". They will do anything that needs to be done to the BG if you can do your part. Whether it is handguns for SD/HD or handguns for hunting, I see far too many folks hung up on velocity, when in part it has very, very little effect on performance when compared to accuracy and terminal performance. As for the shape/profile of those cute little plastic plugs........
 
Quote: "I just seem to have trouble expressing what I mean in a way that's understood"

I sometimes have that same trouble. It's obvious that some replies do not have "accuracy" in the same context as I intended. We are no doubt painting different mental images and visualizing different scenarios as we compose our text.
 
Ther difference in accuracy between combat and target shooting is time. One can create very tight groups with sufficient skill with a one minute per shot standard. It certainly demonstrates the shooter's skills in trigger control. However, a defensive shooter most often does not have the luxury of time to shoot as close to the mechanical accuracy of the gun as humanly possible. It is for this reason combat shooting emphasizes hits to the cardiac triangle, head and central nervous sustem. It includes skills in different forms of burst fire with the intention of causing enough damage to stop the attack as quickly as possible. The accuracy standard is dictated by human anatomy, the body's physical response to fighting, and the ability to hit a moving target.

I am not concerned about aerodynamics of a handgun bullet loaded for self-defense. We already know that JHP pistol bullets fly just fine to 50 yards and that 50 yards is far beyond the typical self-defense distance for handguns. Scoring hits in the cardiac triangle at 50 yards on a moving target is difficult, but the shooter may have the time for the shot. See 7677's "Sight Continuum" document for a discussion about the relationship of time, accuracy and initiative.

A 44 Magnum -P cartridge is simply a load above that of 44 Special and below that of typical 44 Magnum loads. I define this as a 240 grain bullet between 1,100 and 1,250 FPS. Speer Gold Dot SB used to be set at 1,175 FPS which provided good velocity and reasonably controllable recoil from my Ruger Alaskan. This places it in 45 Super territory. We know that a 230 grain 45 caliber bullet at 850 FPS works well for defense, as do 200 and 240 grain 44 Special bullets set for similar speeds.

All the 44 Magnum -P load does is take advantage of the lower end of 44 Magnum to create a hard hitting load that is still tuned for use against humans. It avoids damage to guns chambered in 44 Special by not exceeding the pressure limitation of 44 Special. Use 44 Magnum -P for a performance bonus to get some extra range and improve the bullet's terminal ballistics while realizing that current 44 Special loads are adequate for the typical self-defense scenario.
 
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The reason I like the flat polymer plug is multifold: ... 3) it reduces the exposure to lead when handling the cartridge if loading and unloading the firearm (but not firing it) frequently;...
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While reducing exposure to lead is a good thing, I would like to point out that solid metallic lead, as used in bullets is not soluble. It does not dissolve, break down, and pass through skin. It cannot be absorbed. The only routes into the body are inhalation, ingestion, or injection. handling lead bullets, (even barehanded) is not a serious risk. Simply wash your hands.

The polymer plug may reduce the surface area of exposed lead on the bullet, but does nothing to reduce your lead exposure. Lead exposure comes from other factors.

The .44 Mag load you are looking for does exist, and is used by handloaders all over the country, and has for a long time. What doesn't exist is a factory load at the speed you specify (sub-sonic - less than 1150fps) in .44 Mag brass.

Getting the exact load desired, when not offered in factory ammo is one reason many take up handloading. I know you are not interested, and the expense of a full setup is a factor, but bear in mind that perfectly good ammo can be loaded with cheap simple hand tools, on any small flat stable surface, and has been for well over a century.

Compared to the usual reloading setups, it is labor intensive, and your production vs time is low, but it is quite do able. If handloading is out of the question, and the factories do not make the load you want, essentially your your only option to get the desired load is take buckets of money to an ammo makers and ask them to build it for you. If you take enough buckets, and they are full enough, the ammo makers will do it.

Not practical for most of us, not being independently wealthy, or having a wealthy pool of investors, but about the only way to get what you are looking for, if you aren't going to load it yourself.

Good Luck.
 
I find the Cor-Bon DPX loads no where near as punishing as the other factory 240 gr JHPs in my 629-1 shown below.

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I think it only gets the 225 gr slug at 1100 fps from my 4 inch tube. But it's still plenty for deer!

Deaf
 
To Sevens:

I also mean no disrespect but I think that you are wrong. '+P', as far as I'm aware, is not a term originated by SAAMI; it was originally used by manufacturers loading cartridges that were over SAAMI pressure (when smokeless powder became common, it was very easy to do so), for the safety of the shooters; certain +P loads became common enough that SAAMI started standardizing and listing them. Just because 380 +P is not yet listed by SAAMI doesn't mean that loaders shouldn't label it such; in fact, they should, again, for the shooters' safety. If one was to shoot a modern '380 +P' in a gun that is more than 100 years old, for instance, there is a much greater likelihood that it will damage the gun and possibly the shooter than if one was to shoot it in a modern gun that is designed to tolerate higher pressure.

Also, 'magnum' means 'big' and what's big is, again, pressure. Take .357 Magnum, for example. A lot of people think it's 'big' because the casing is longer; this is incorrect; the real difference is inside the case, where the brass is thicker around the primer than a .38 Special, in order to tolerate the much higher casing pressure; the reason the case is longer is so that one cannot possibly load it into a .38 Special gun, again for the safety of the shooter.

If someone loads a Magnum caliber above SAAMI pressure, it would in fact be a disservice not to label it '+P' on top of the 'Magnum'. Take Garrett Cartridges .44 bear loads, for instance. There are two reasons why Garrett specifies that these .44 Magnum +P's are to be used in Rugers (among others) and not in S&W's (among others). One is that they are longer than normal and won't fit, but the more important reason is that the chamber walls are thinner on an S&W and the pressure would be too high to shoot safely.

Conversely, if one loads a .44 Magnum case with a .44 Special load, they should indicate this somehow (I think '-P' would be quite fitting) so the shooter knows what they are getting into. My hypothetical load would most certainly not cycle a Desert Eagle (or any semi-auto), for example, and it would be a disservice to not label it accordingly.

SAAMI does not have a monopoly on the term '+P'. It's just an abbreviation for 'overpressure'.
 
Also, 'magnum' means 'big' and what's big is, again, pressure. Take .357 Magnum, for example. A lot of people think it's 'big' because the casing is longer; this is incorrect; the real difference is inside the case, where the brass is thicker around the primer than a .38 Special, in order to tolerate the much higher casing pressure; the reason the case is longer is so that one cannot possibly load it into a .38 Special gun, again for the safety of the shooter.
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This simply is not true. The term "magnum" does mean "big" and finds it's origins in champagne bottles, but as a gun term, it's never had and serious connotation beyond marketing. Further, the .357 Magnum cartridge case is longer than the .38 Special, but otherwise not different in any other way, certainly not in the construction of the case head, which is the same between the two cartridges.
Conversely, if one loads a .44 Magnum case with a .44 Special load, they should indicate this somehow (I think '-P' would be quite fitting) so the shooter knows what they are getting into. My hypothetical load would most certainly not cycle a Desert Eagle (or any semi-auto), for example, and it would be a disservice to not label it accordingly.
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Again, in many loads and products currently on the market and selling daily, this approach simply has not been used. They typically call it "light recoil" or "reduced recoil", they don't label it as a "-p."

I'd have to agree that SAAMI may not have a monopoly on the term +P and I can't say I know who first used or coined it when referring to ammunition, but the firearms here in North America these days and the ammunition offered for them are (nearly?) all kept to an industry standard.
If one was to shoot a modern '380 +P' in a gun that is more than 100 years old, for instance, there is a much greater likelihood that it will damage the gun and possibly the shooter than if one was to shoot it in a modern gun that is designed to tolerate higher pressure.
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In fact, if someone is marketing .380 Auto ammunition that is built beyond current SAAMI standard, it's outside the design scope of any .380 pistol, even if Ruger, S&W or Colt made it last week. And if the gun in question were 100yrs old, we could argue that it's more likely to be damaged from even SAAMI-spec .380.
 
As for why a Magnum is called a Magnum, from "The History of the .357 Magnum Cartridge."


The name was created by using the actual bullet diameter of a 38 Special bullet (.357 inch) and adding the word “magnum,” which had already been established as meaning “powerful” in the ammunition world. The 357 Smith & Wesson Magnum was the first American magnum cartridge, and naturally made a splash among shooters as a result.
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But in reality, as enthusiasts of the shooting sports, we really don't need to argue amongst ourselves over petty grammar and terminology, especially when everyone knows what we are talking about. Besides, I don't think it was the topic of the OPs thread............;)
 
Magnum had already been used in Euro rifle rounds before the .357 Magnum, had it not?
Besides, I don't think it was the topic of the OPs thread............;)
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Shall I be the first to welcome you to the interwebs, bro?! :p:D
 
I don't understand all the squabbling. Isn't .44 Special the answer to the OP's question?
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I don't believe so. He is looking for something between the 44 Special and a full power 44 Magnum.
 
Ah. There are companies that do custom loads per the buyers specs, if the silvertip load is still too hot.

Kind of funny that there is that big a gap .45 Colt type power and all the .44/.45 Magnums. I guess that's where the smaller magnums and 10mm live.
 
Kind of funny that there is that big a gap .45 Colt type power and all the .44/.45 Magnums. I guess that's where the smaller magnums and 10mm live.
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in a way, its funny, but if it wasn't a "big gap" there wouldn't be much point to the magnums, would there?

Top end loads in .45 Colt (NOT RUGER ONLY loads) push a 250gr slug to around 1000fps, a bit more in longer barrels, allowing for variation in individual guns. I've got a 7.5" that clocks just under 1100fps. "Full house" .44 Mag throws a 240 in the 1400fps range. (6") So that "big gap" is 3-400fps with roughly equal weight bullets. May not seem like much, but its in a critical area.

Virtually all the gun writers of the 1950s who had some degree of law enforcement experience essentially all agreed that the "ideal" duty round would be a .40+ caliber, a 200gr-ish bullet, moving at 950-1000fps. They felt this would be the best combination of power and control ability A ".41 Special" would have filled the bill, and in a gun that wasn't too big to wear all day.

Nobody listened. Or, rather, they did, but then did something else. The .41 Magnum. As tested, it didn't suit.

If I understand the OP correctly, he wants a sub-sonic (below 1100fps, but only just) load in .44 Mag cases, and is looking for a factory load. I don't know of any, sorry. The Silvertip is close, but still a bit more power than he wants. Handloads can do this, easily, but are not what the OP is looking for.

Special orders from custom loaders are possible, but there isn't any "off the shelf" stuff (that I know of) that matches the specs he wants.

FYI
The term "magnum" entered the shooting world in 1912 with the .375 H&H Magnum. Holland & Holland "borrowed" the term from the champagne industry, where it meant, essentially "a larger than standard size bottle".

They used it correctly too, as the .375 H&H case was a "larger than standard size bottle". Since the "bottle" held more powder than others, it was more powerful, and "magnum" became forevermore linked with "more powerful" in the shooting world. The .357 Magnum (1935) was the first American cartridge to use "Magnum". It was more powerful, and in a slightly bigger (longer) "bottle".
 
I didn't mean there should be a hotter .44 Special. Just musing that it's funny there isn't something like .38/44 in any of the .44 or .45 rounds. Even .45 Super is a little hot.

With all the rounds tried and discarded in the last century it is surprising nothing was in that range.
 
I'd say the most likely reason there is no factory load in that range is because the majority of people who want just a little bit more than the Special can give simply download the magnum.

In other words, no market.
 
I'd say the most likely reason there is no factory load in that range is because the majority of people who want just a little bit more than the Special can give simply download the magnum.
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Another part of the problem is there is little gained by pushing a 240gr bullet from 1000fps to 1150fps when talking SD. A 240gr bullet at 1000 will fully penatrate vitals and 1150 isn't really fast enough to give a signifigant advantage from a large temporary cavity.
As to the OPs percieved accuracy advantage using downloaded magnums I've shot enough specials from my magnums to know the accuracy difference between 1000fps loads in mag cases and special cases is a non factor.
 
I thought that I had read that the brass was thicker around the primer in a .357 magnum case, but now I can't find it, so it's possible that I got that mixed up with something else; if so, my apologies; still, it is the pressure that's the big difference.

I stumbled across Barnes VOR-TX .44 Magnum cartridges, listed as a 225 grain XPG lead free bullet going 1145 fps, achieving 655 ft-lbs of muzzle energy (I'm not sure of the barrel length used for this statistic). This is pretty close to what I've been looking for, though still slightly supersonic. Has anyone tried them? Thanks.
 
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